Defending the Church on barring gaylifestyle peoples...

[JimR-OCDS]

You make a good point Jim... But I wonder does the Church deny the girl the sacraments? If they don't, then they must allow her some education to be able receive them...

So is this the future? We are not going to allow the children of gay parents to be Catholic?

The girl probably should not have been Baptised, if the lesbian parents are the one's who presented her when she was an infant.

Baptism is a sacrament of faith and for infants, its the parents faith that the Baptism of infants is allowed.

Parents promise to raise the child in the faith and do so before the congregation when the make their Baptismal Promises. How does a
couple living in an openly disordered relationship promise the Church that they reject sin?

Generally a priest will refuse to Baptize and infant if the parents do not attend Mass and follow the faith. Unfortunately in the past, Baptism was treated as more of a social event than a sacrament.
Priest would not see the parents after Baptism until it was time to enroll them for First Communion, again treated like a social event.

When I taught high-school Confirmation, there were kids showing up who hadn't been to CCD classes since their First Communion back in the 2nd grade. Many never made a first penance, because some parishes abused the sacrament by waiting until after First Communion. The result, the child made their First Communion and never showed up again until Conformation in the 11th grade. Real faith, eh?


Jim

 

[Michie]

Church Increasingly Called on to Defend Stance Against Homosexual Parenting

TEACHING MOMENT. Denver Archbishop Charles Chaput, speaking above at the archdiocese’s John Paul II Center for the New Evangelization, explained his decision to bar from archdiocesan schools students whose parents are living in ‘open discord’ with Church teaching.

WASHINGTON —

After administrators of Sacred Heart of Jesus Catholic School in Boulder, Colo., discovered that a preschooler’s parents were lesbians, they declared that the child would not be able to continue in the school.

The lesbian couple was informed that their child would only be permitted to complete kindergarten, but not advance to first grade at the school. Both the Archdiocese of Denver and the pastor with direct responsibility for the parish school issued statements defending the Church’s position.
“Parents living in open discord with Catholic teaching in areas of faith and morals unfortunately choose by their actions to disqualify their children from enrollment,” said a statement issued by the Archdiocese of Denver.

“To allow children in these circumstances to continue in our school would be a cause of confusion for the student in that what they are being taught in school conflicts with what they experience in the home,” the statement continued.

Denver Archbishop Charles Chaput addressed the issue in hiscolumn in the March 10 edition of the Denver Catholic Register.

As same-sex “marriage” slowly gains legal and social approval, opponents increasingly must address efforts to establish the moral and practical equivalence of same-sex couples with traditional unions that provide children with a mother and father.

Continued- http://www.ncregister.com/register_exclusives/denver_stands_its_ground/

 

[benedictaoo]

The girl probably should not have been Baptised, if the lesbian parents are the one's who presented her when she was an infant.

Baptism is a sacrament of faith and for infants, its the parents faith that the Baptism of infants is allowed.

Parents promise to raise the child in the faith and do so before the congregation when the make their Baptismal Promises. How does a
couple living in an openly disordered relationship promise the Church that they reject sin?

Generally a priest will refuse to Baptize and infant if the parents do not attend Mass and follow the faith. Unfortunately in the past, Baptism was treated as more of a social event than a sacrament.
Priest would not see the parents after Baptism until it was time to enroll them for First Communion, again treated like a social event.

When I taught high-school Confirmation, there were kids showing up who hadn't been to CCD classes since their First Communion back in the 2nd grade. Many never made a first penance, because some parishes abused the sacrament by waiting until after First Communion. The result, the child made their First Communion and never showed up again until Conformation in the 11th grade. Real faith, eh?


Jim

Sigh... which brings me back to my point that these are the kind of Catholics we have running around... and these are the types who are in our Catholic schools.

They put them in there and don't live it at home and they only do so, so they don't have to teach it in the home.

I still think it's a double standard.

 

[Lady Bug]

the Church holds that homosexual relations are graver sin then hetero adultery as once again heterosexuals can make their relationship sacramental- while the objectively immoral homosexuals cannot. Heterosexual sex is a sin in context while homosexual sex is always objectively sinful / intrinsically evil.

Hope this helps because I am a helpful compassionate person.

can you show me where it says that homo relations are graver than hetero ones? it would give me some peace of mind, thanks.

 

[MariaRegina]

can you show me where it says that homo relations are graver than hetero ones? it would give me some peace of mind, thanks.

Dear Lady Bug:

When reading the Bible, it is clear that sins of the active homosexual lifestyle have lead to severe punishment by God. Witness the destruction of Sodom (named after a homosexual act) and Gomorrah. God allowed the destruction of entire cities.

Have heterosexual sins been punished like this? Sure there is the sin of Omar, but only he was killed, not an entire city.

Yet, we are all sinners in need of mercy and none of us should consider ourselves to be superior to others.

We should not judge because Christ commanded us not to judge. We all need to repent.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Sigh... which brings me back to my point that these are the kind of Catholics we have running around... and these are the types who are in our Catholic schools.

They put them in there and don't live it at home and they only do so, so they don't have to teach it in the home.

I still think it's a double standard.

Its not really a double standard because although many Catholic parents who send their kids to Catholic school don't live out their faith as they should, they're not openly opposing the Church.

The case of the Lesbian parents would be akin to a manager of a Planned Parenthood clinic sending their five year old to Catholic School. It makes no sense.

Although its not the childs fault, but the parent's, it puts the Catholic School bad position of being between the parent and the child.

BTW, I have other issues with Catholic Schools that I won't get into in this thread.


Jim

 

[LightHorseman]

the difference between the thieves adulterers and drug users etc it that they do not bring the scandal to the parking when they drop the kids off in the shool parking lot- no one is seeing condoms etc

but the lesbians through openess broadcast and are unrepenntent- and refuse to acknowledge the sin

now if i am a thief or adulterer, i am not going to argue the fact or rightness or wrongness

additionaly as stated in the OP

the Church holds that homosexual relations are graver sin then hetero adultery as once again heterosexuals can make their relationship sacramental- while the objectively immoral homosexuals cannot. Heterosexual sex is a sin in context while homosexual sex is always objectively sinful / intrinsically evil.

Hope this helps because I am a helpful compassionate person.

Unless the couple in question is having sex in the parking lot, then just how the heck do you know whats going on at home?

A. Nice to know its the appearance you are concerned about, rather than the actuality.

B. Um, no, adultery can't become "sacramental" if either or both of those involved are married to others. Considering we're talking about parents of chilcren, then obviously any adulterers are going to be cheating on a spouse.

C. Just how scandalous is a woman or two women dropping a kid off in a carpark? I think all the scandal is largely in the moind of busy body gossips. I've been in school carparks, its not uncommon for people to drop kids off with same sex people in a car... carpools to work, friends, elder siblings.

You're grasping at straws trying to maintain this double standard.

School is welcome to kick out anyone they want, all I ask is that they operate with the vaguest impression of consistency while doing so.

 

[LightHorseman]

Its not really a double standard because although many Catholic parents who send their kids to Catholic school don't live out their faith as they should, they're not openly opposing the Church.

The case of the Lesbian parents would be akin to a manager of a Planned Parenthood clinic sending their five year old to Catholic School. It makes no sense.

Although its not the childs fault, but the parent's, it puts the Catholic School bad position of being between the parent and the child.

BTW, I have other issues with Catholic Schools that I won't get into in this thread.


Jim

Funny you should use this very example... my daughter, who attends a Catholic kindergarten, attends with the daughter of someone I studied nursing with, who now works in a fertility centre, including in performing D+Cs. Strangely, no one has ever made an issue of it.

 

[LightHorseman]

Dear Lady Bug:

When reading the Bible, it is clear that sins of the active homosexual lifestyle have lead to severe punishment by God. Witness the destruction of Sodom (named after a homosexual act) and Gomorrah. God allowed the destruction of entire cities.

Have heterosexual sins been punished like this? Sure there is the sin of Omar, but only he was killed, not an entire city.

Yet, we are all sinners in need of mercy and none of us should consider ourselves to be superior to others.

We should not judge because Christ commanded us not to judge. We all need to repent.

Actually, if you read the Bible, you'll find that the destruction of Sodom had nothing to do with homosexuality. Everywhere it is discussed in the Bible, the sin of Sodom was haughtiness, lack of charity, and ill treatment of strangers. "Sodomy" didn't come to be associated with homosexuality until quite late, in the middle ages, actually. Where the King James refers to "sodomites", it is generally accepted that "shrine prostitutes" is a more accurate meaning than "homosexual men".

Just FYI

 

[LightHorseman]

can you show me where it says that homo relations are graver than hetero ones? it would give me some peace of mind, thanks.

It doesn't.

Indeed, go through the Bible with a fine tooth comb, when one looks into the context and translation issues, rather than just swallowing the first impression version you get from whatever English language Bible you pick up, its debateable if homosexuality is condemned at all. But certainly nowhere is it condemned MORE harshly than heterosexual sin.

 

[MariaRegina]

Let's put this into proper perspective.

At the very first Council in Jerusalem, the Apostles said to flee sexual immorality.

That included immoral hetersexual acts performed inside and outside of marriage and well as homosexual acts. Yes, lust is a sin.

 

[LightHorseman]

Let's put this into proper perspective.

At the very first Council in Jerusalem, the Apostles said to flee sexual immorality.

That included immoral hetersexual acts performed inside and outside of marriage and well as homosexual acts. Yes, lust is a sin.

No one is denying this.

The issue is that the children of homosexual sinners are being targeted for exclusion, while the children of heterosexual sinners are given a free pass.

 

[MariaRegina]

Hey, if one of those lesbian parents was a cross dresser, who would have known.

Somehow, it became obvious.

If parents are obviously living together in sin, and obviously doing abortions or other sinful acts, yes, they too will be excluded.

It it the public aspect that doomed them.

 

[LightHorseman]

Hey, if one of those lesbian parents was a cross dresser, who would have known.

Somehow, it became obvious.

If parents are obviously living together in sin, and obviously doing abortions or other sinful acts, yes, they too will be excluded.

It it the public aspect that doomed them.

What utter rot. You cannot tell me that in a school community, people aren't aware of who's sleeping with who. Humans LOVE gossip, and infidelity. It is unimagineable that in a school of any size, there won't be adulterers who's actions are fairly common knowledge. It is obvious that this is a double standard. The children of others who live a contrary lifestyle to that espoused by the church are welcome at the school, the kids of this homosexual couple aren't. And no amount of tapdancing and trying to make it about "obviousness" will make any difference. The OBVIOUSNESS of the sin isn't supposed to be the issue here, remember?

 

[MariaRegina]

In the New Testament, when a person was publicly known as having committed incest, he was excommunicated ... excluded from the Church by the Apostles.

 

[BAFRIEND]

Unless the couple in question is having sex in the parking lot, then just how the heck do you know whats going on at home?

A. Nice to know its the appearance you are concerned about, rather than the actuality.

B. Um, no, adultery can't become "sacramental" if either or both of those involved are married to others. Considering we're talking about parents of chilcren, then obviously any adulterers are going to be cheating on a spouse.

C. Just how scandalous is a woman or two women dropping a kid off in a carpark? I think all the scandal is largely in the moind of busy body gossips. I've been in school carparks, its not uncommon for people to drop kids off with same sex people in a car... carpools to work, friends, elder siblings.

You're grasping at straws trying to maintain this double standard.

School is welcome to kick out anyone they want, all I ask is that they operate with the vaguest impression of consistency while doing so.

as far as the adultery thing goes- the Church views adultery as sex outside of marraige regardless of the marital status of those involved

in the context of Church morality/theology- adultery is defined as an offense against God- not an offense against the sacrament. so in the eyesof the Church, single heterosexual commit adultery against God when engaging in an improper relationship and the offense of adultery is against God

of course I learned this when I was in a monastery and would not expect you to know that

And whenever somone defends wrong or sin or scandal they always place whatever it is they defend on a scale of sins or relate it to the sins of others andsay- "What about so and so or what about this- it is just as bad so mind your own business."

Try using this defense on God on your day of judgement.

 

[Secundulus]

In the New Testament, when a person was publicly known as having committed incest, he was excommunicated ... excluded from the Church by the Apostles.

Yes. But the sins of the parents are not visited upon their children. I believe this is also in the New Testament.

I cannot see how it is moral to exclude children for the sins of their parents (or whomever else is raising them).

 

[BAFRIEND]

Yes. But the sins of the parents are not visited upon their children. I believe this is also in the New Testament.

I cannot see how it is moral to exclude children for the sins of their parents (or whomever else is raising them).

You believe that is in the New Testament or you know it for a fact ? You know, there are a couple free online Bibles that have search engines that are simple to use so people can avoid attributing things to the Bible to support their end of the argument.

At any rate- I don't believe that the sins of the lesbians should visited on the Church which is God's House. And I know for a fact it is indeed in the New Testament that Jesus stated that whatever the Church bound on earth would be bound in Heaven. The Bishop has the authority of Jesus on making moral decisions on behalf of the Church, not you or I or the media or the gays.

 

[faithfulfollowerofYeshua]

At any rate- I don't believe that the sins of the lesbians should visited on the Church which is God's House. And I know for a fact it is indeed in the New Testament that Jesus stated that whatever the Church bound on earth would be bound in Heaven. The Bishop has the authority of Jesus on making moral decisions on behalf of the Church, not you or I or the media or the gays.

Exactly.

 

[LightHorseman]

as far as the adultery thing goes- the Church views adultery as sex outside of marraige regardless of the marital status of those involved

Fine... but thats not the issue. Adulterous relationships can only be sanctified if those involved get married. People already married to other people can't do that, can they? So your attempted dodge by claiming that heterosexual adulterers are somehow less sinfuil fails a pretty important test.

in the context of Church morality/theology- adultery is defined as an offense against God- not an offense against the sacrament. so in the eyesof the Church, single heterosexual commit adultery against God when engaging in an improper relationship and the offense of adultery is against God

Great. So?

of course I learned this when I was in a monastery and would not expect you to know that

And I can detect sanctimonious condecension at 300 metres, but of course I would not expect you to know that.

And whenever somone defends wrong or sin or scandal they always place whatever it is they defend on a scale of sins or relate it to the sins of others andsay- "What about so and so or what about this- it is just as bad so mind your own business."

Try using this defense on God on your day of judgement.

I'm not "defending" anything, so kindly take you're "well take it up with God" phoney piety and do something untoward with it. All I'm asking for is consistency. I'm not defending homosexuality OR adultery. I'm pointing out that penalising people for one and not the other is inconsistent, unjust, and a double standard.