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Defending the Bible

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Tree of Life, Nov 17, 2020.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    People from the same family "differ" and change their minds all the time - this is an accepted fact of life.

    That was my example of what I claimed was not changing person to person - so not sure why you are asking
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    And then you know for certain they are proof of the supernatural. So obvious is that detail that even the atheist's change once they take the time to study them.

    Yet - each person may choose as they wish no matter the evidence to the contrary - so I am not saying you cannot believe as you wish.
     
  3. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

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    Perhaps the idea that the Bible is a primitive document or the product of primitive peoples. For example, "These people were trying their best at science and cosmology, but their attempt was hopelessly antiquated. Now we know better..."
     
  4. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

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    This is a good one. The Bible is somehow primitive. The best example of this kind of objection is that the Bible is scientifically primitive. I'll pass over that objection in this section of the course because we will be taking an in depth look at "The Bible and Science" in a later unit.
     
  5. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    I agree but that is not choosing a belief. You are either convinced or not convinced by a proposition. Can you choose to believe you were born on Mars?
     
  6. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    Can you give evidence to your claim that we can choose our beliefs? I contend that we cannot. I am not convinced that the Danial prophecies are true for many reasons. I cannot choose otherwise unless I have different evidence.
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    There is the obvious evidence that we all agree that people change their opinions -- sometimes multiple times on the same subject over a period of a few years.

    That is not even debatable.

    And I maintain that you are welcome to your opinion and that who knows if 2 years from today when you have had enough time to view the details of the matter in the book of Daniel in sufficient detail -- as did that one science professor - you too would be a Christian as has been the case with other atheists that did that very thing.

    People in Christ's day got the same evidence and one group voted to kill him the other to accept Him as their Savior so as not to end up in the lake of fire predicted by Rev 20, and instead live forever in the big huge wonderful universe.

    Everyone may choose as they wish.

    BTW: Your assumption about how much objective-decision making is going on within a depraved nature - (for all members of mankind have a sinful nature) - is one of the assumptions you make that is in question.

    Eph 4:
    17 So I say this, and affirm in the Lord, that you are to no longer walk just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their minds, 18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;

    ====================

    Sinful mankind has a depraved nature and by definition then a defective understanding of reality - as well as compromised ability to do right.

    Romans 8:4-10

    But God supernaturally draws all mankind to himself - even though our understanding is defective, compromised and disabled to an extent. John 12:32

    One way that is done is by God the Holy Spirit "convicting the WORLD of sin, and righteousness and judgment" John 16

    7 But I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I am leaving; for if I do not leave, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment: 9 regarding sin, because they do not believe in Me;


    ==================

    I listened to a radio program interview of a leading atheist who was president of an organization that helps former Christians become happy fulfilled atheists, making new social connections, providing a help-call-in line etc. That person was being interviewed by a non-Christian Jew who was a believer.

    He asked the lady "what is the single most common call that you get from atheists on your help line?".

    She answered that one topic, one call comes from atheists far above any other and it does not matter how many decades the person has been an atheist -- that is an unaccountable fear of hell, and their sense of impending doom.

    ========================

    If the atheist is right - he/she will finally ultimately attain to their grand reward of a 6 foot hole in the ground.

    If the Christian is wrong they get the atheist's absolute ultimate top reward... the 6 foot hole in the ground.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2020
  8. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    This is not what @Clizby WampusCat asked... He asked for evidence that you can 'choose' what you believe. Your response states that you can 'change' what you believe. Big difference there... And sure, people 'change' what they believe all the time; but not by pure choice. Again, as he asked you prior, make yourself currently believe you were born on Mars, without some newly presented catalyst?

    And sure, you can also 'choose' to protect an existing belief, by maybe closing your ears to new evidence, not listening, or maybe the new evidence is not yet compelling enough to over-turn your current belief...?

    But this further goes to show that you cannot 'choose' what you believe, as demonstrated by way of choosing to 'protect' an existing belief from alteration.
     
  9. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    I find your logic a little vexing? If a theist were to turn atheist, because they continually read another publication, which finally convinced them it was true, which in turn, converted their current belief, somehow, this would validate that publication too?
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2020
  10. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    Are you assuming that the ONLY (2) choices is either nothing, or Christianity? If there is at least one more choice, then your above comment might be a little off?
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    You mean I missed

    "If re-incarnation is right then you could come back as a frog instead of getting that 6' hole in the ground"?

    Christianity still has the best scenario.
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    1. The goal of "attaining to a 6' hole in the ground' was not considered in my scenario as "win win".
    2. "validating" that scenario of "we got nothing" is not easy to do in a world of 10^120 odds against it.
    3. It is like saying "why not work on the problem of being broke for life, rather than working on the problem of being a success in business"
     
  13. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    You are presenting a false dichotomy.

    You stated below:


    "If the Christian is wrong they get the atheist's absolute ultimate top reward... the 6 foot hole in the ground."

    Your above statement is to assume that if the Christians have it wrong, the only alternative is a finite death. You are not considering other religions - where your lack of belief and/or following of their assertions may land you in their 'hell'. Or other, or other, or other....?
     
  14. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    I only care about what is true. What is [your] evidence that Christianity is actually true? Making assertions, 'just in case', as you are eluding to above with the 'Pascal's Wager' comment, does not make Christianity true. You have to prove it.

    I again ask...

    If a theist becomes an atheist, simply because they continually read from a specific publication, which later makes that theist change their belief, does this somehow validate that publication?
     
  15. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    I agree. But that is not choosing what you believe. People change their minds when the evidence they were convinced by is shown to be bad or insufficient or new evidence convinces them of the opposite. In no way can anyone choose a belief. Can you believe you were born on Mars?

    This exposes your lack of good epistemology. Just because one person changed their minds does not mean anyone else will. It all depends on their personal epistemology not how long they study.

    Can you choose to believe you were born on Mars if you wish?

    Give sufficient evidence this is true and we can go from there.

    Yes, many are fearful. It is because that is what they were indoctrinated with. It has nothing to do with that they secretly believe. That is religions fault.

    I don't believe the afterlife does not exist, I just don't have sufficient evidence to believe that it does or that there is any kind of reward. All you have to do is provide sufficient evidence that the afterlife exists and I will have no choice but to believe it.[/QUOTE]
     
  16. essentialsaltes

    essentialsaltes Stranger in a Strange Land

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    There are many holy books of various religions. There is nothing in particular special about the Bible that demonstrates that it is the 'right' one.
     
  17. essentialsaltes

    essentialsaltes Stranger in a Strange Land

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    Most believers say they have some kind of personal connection or knowledge of one or more gods. How would you connect that internal feeling of the divine with any particular text?
     
  18. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Actually the most serious problem with inerrancy is the nature of the Bible. It's not a theology text. It's mostly narrative. Jesus teaches in a way that seems to encourage people to react personally. Attempts to turn this into doctrine meet all kinds of problems, as you see from discussions in CF every day. That's just not Jesus' purpose. Jesus' own exegesis follows the Jewish tradition, which is far from literal. It's not so much that the Bible contradicts itself, though it does, as that writer have differing perspectives. It just doesn't match what conservatives are looking for.

    However in addition to your three issues, the Bible -- if read literally -- is simply wrong on history and science in a number of cases.

    The whole idea of defending the Bible is questionable. What you're defending is you own misunderstanding of what it is.
     
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  19. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

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    I think that I successfully argue to the contrary in the video I posted.
     
  20. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

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    In the video I argue for the need for an objective text to interpret our subjective experiences.

    I realized that I didn't have the video posted in this thread. It can be found in this thread.
     
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