Christ's human suffering -- torment by Roman soldiers could never have paid the debt owed for even 1 sinner. It was merely the outward demonstration... visual aide.
I fully agree with this: “Christ's human suffering -- torment by Roman soldiers could never have paid the debt owed for even 1 sinner”, but is God’s Love and power great enough to forgive such a debt?
I do not agree at all with: “. It was merely the outward demonstration... visual aide”. To suggest it is only a “visual aide” would mean it is not really needed, but how many of those 3000 would have been baptized on Pentecost, if Christ had not physically gone to the cross?
What kind of person (let alone God) would see to the torture, humiliation and murder of the own innocent son to allow the undeserving guilty to go free? What is God lacking that He needs anything like the sacrifice of an innocent person to have the Love to forgive?
Penal substitution is non-participatory, while having you be crucified “with” Christ is very participatory.
God forgives those who repent, seek his forgiveness, and humbly accept His forgiveness. Today we also have away to be crucified (fairly justly disciplined) for our sins by being crucified with Christ, but those
refusing this fair just discipline will be severely punished, with hell. Being disciplined by a loving parent and be punished are very different, but are both fair and just (equal) dependent on the acceptance of the sinner.
2 Cor 5 "he made him who knew no sin - to become sin for us - that we might become the righteousness of God in Christ".
This verse comes up a lot, so what does
Christ becoming “sin” mean to you, did He become an intangible concept (sin), did He become a sinner, or what?
If you go to the NIV there is an alternative translation for at the bottom where “sin offering” is given as an alternative to “being made sin” and we all know Christ was a “sin offering”, so what support is there for that translation?
Paul being a scholar of the Torah, used a Hebraism. In this case, the Hebrew word for "sin" was also used to mean "sin offering" (see the Hebrew word: chatta'ath), and thus to be "made sin" was a Hebrew way of saying "made a sin offering". the NASB cross-references to Romans 8:3 which uses "sin offering" in a similar text as 2 Corinthians 5:21
There is the analogy in 2 Corinthians 8:9; the cross-reference to the clearer statement in Romans 8:3 that Christ was sent "in the likeness of sinful flesh" to deal with sin; and the allusion to Sacrifice in 2 Corinthians 5:21 where it says Christ "knew no sin" in corresponding to the sacrificial animal being free of blemish (otherwise Paul saying "knew no sin" would be irrelevant here).
The Greek word for "sin" that Paul uses is used in the Greek Old Testament both to mean "sin" and "sin offering," with both usages even in the same verse such as in Leviticus 4:3.
You can certainly do a deeper study of 2 Cor 5: 21
Isaiah 53 "He took the stripes for us - to whom the stroke was due".
Not sure which verse you are referring to and which translation so I will address it after I have your specific verse.
He suffers the second death in our place.
Scripture does not say that.
It is a punishment for David - and shows the nation - that even the king cannot get by with murder - thus preserving order.
I fully agree it was not penal substitution (David suffered).
Indeed - that is the point of it.
Agree good observation: This is the crucifixion “with” Christ and the suffering/punishment/discipline we are to feel.
You did not address this: If I am just one of billions of sinners causing Christ’s time on the cross, then I might be responsible for a few nanoseconds of His time on the cross, but do I play a greater part?
No - because Christ paid the exact amount of torment and suffering owed for each sin, for each person, in all of time. You could never do that.
That is not what I was suggesting would happen, but since I fulfilled my objective without sinning and thus not needing Christ to go to the cross for a person, there would be another way for at least me and hopefully others without Christ going to the cross, if I had done it?
Christ was born with a sinless nature - you with a sinful nature. Only Christ as God could accommodate the full load of torment and suffering owed by all sinners for all their sins in the lake of fire. His capacity for suffering - much greater than yours. His sinless nature pure - your sinful nature a blemished sacrifice - impure.
So, Christ was not tempted like me with a “sinful nature”? There is nothing to suggest Christ was born with a better “nature” different than myself, He just did not sin, because He have the added Love (as a non-created being), which I will later have to accept from God to become like Christ.
Did Christ receive the same knowledge of good and evil?
Gal 2:20 - crucified with Christ
Romans 6:1-5 buried with him in baptism - death to sin, death to self.
OK, but did you experience a death blow to your heart?
It is God paying the debt that His own Law says is owed for sin - the death sentence -- the suffering-and-death sentence. When the penalty of the law is upheld -- the law is in full force rather than abolished.
So, God is the undeserving kidnapper taking the ransom payment???
There is no cosmic “Law” concerning debt “payments” which God “must” follow?
All mature adults have died spiritually by sinning and if Christ does not come in their life time will die physically, which is what happened to Adam and is the death(s) talked about which sinning caused and was not done away with by Christ dying.
Can God forgive the largest of debts?
people condemned to hell both before and after the cross. The Law of God condemns all mankind as sinners in need of salvation.
Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
What do you mean by “all mankind”, would that include the unborn child?
Justification by Faith
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Instead of zapping each sinner the moment they commit their first sin - He draws them in grace to Himself... both OT and NT.
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
Before the cross - in Matthew 17 - both Moses and Elijah stand in glorified heavenly form - with Christ on the mount of transfiguration - fully forgiven.
Leviticus 16 - "Day of Atonement" is a visual aide used by God to show that the Atonement doctrine must include the role of Christ as the "sin offering" -- as the "atoning sacrifice"... and also the role of Christ as the Hebrews 8:1-6 "High Priest". Both ministries of Christ are needed for it to work.
All these OT sacrifices were just “poor” shadows of the reality that will come with Christ, but I do not see how they were visual aids for some deeper meaning in themselves?