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Deep Time

Astrophile

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This is assuming all things have been constant since the beginning, yes? Since most theoreticians believe the moon was created from an object impacting with earth, the starting distance, velocity, etc are all simply assumptions used to make the math work with what we observe now. But being comet formation theories - and hence solar system formation theories are in serious trouble, the books are still open.

http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news113.html
"First of all we found evidence that the standard astronomical predictions for the origin of dust in comets, or at least the ones in this comet, appear to be incorrect."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliosphere
""The IBEX results are truly remarkable! What we are seeing in these maps does not match with any of the previous theoretical models of this region."

What do theories of the origin of dust in comets and IBEX observations of plasma processes in the outer heliosphere have to do with the recession of the Moon?

To put it briefly, the time-scale for the recession of the Moon (1-10 billion years) is of the same order of magnitude as the measured radiometric ages of the oldest terrestrial and lunar rocks (4.4-4.5 billion years). The Moon's current recession rate has been measured, not assumed, and it is a well understood consequence of tidal interaction between the Moon and the Earth.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Hey atheist dude...how did the tissue survive for moe than 65+ M I L L I O N Y E A R S ?

Hey talks about stuff he doesn't know anything about dude...
1. Do you know what Dr. Schweizter actually discovered?
2. Do you know what steps she went through to recover it from the thigh bone?
3. Have you read anything about an actual experiment she conducted - which is how science works as opposed to Creationists throwing up their hands and saying, "how is that possible?!?!" - where she discovered a method of natural preservation?

Of course you don't. You appear to have a "Lucy was a chimp" level of understanding of her discovery. Did you notice where I referred to MOR-1125? Did you know what that meant? Did you take 10 seconds and Google it?

Of course you didn't.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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We've been discussing the soft tissue dating method. The soft tissue found in dino...and other fossils...clearly indicate errors with the commonly used dating techniques.

I see that -57 still doesn't get it. As I noted:
Let's see, Dr. Schweitzer's discovery of preserved fragments of soft tissue in MOR-1125 means:

1. What we thought about the preservation of soft tissue under certain conditions was wrong.

or

2. Everything we know about radiometric dating and the age of the earth is wrong.​
 
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Justatruthseeker

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What do theories of the origin of dust in comets and IBEX observations of plasma processes in the outer heliosphere have to do with the recession of the Moon?

To put it briefly, the time-scale for the recession of the Moon (1-10 billion years) is of the same order of magnitude as the measured radiometric ages of the oldest terrestrial and lunar rocks (4.4-4.5 billion years). The Moon's current recession rate has been measured, not assumed, and it is a well understood consequence of tidal interaction between the Moon and the Earth.

And yet your formation theories are ALL being called into question. Only someone trying to ignore reality would ask what comet formation theories have to do with earth's formation theories, since they both derive from the same theories of solar system formation being called into question as we speak.

But any of you have yet to answer my other two posts.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/deep-time.7922616/page-15#post-69046887

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/deep-time.7922616/page-15#post-69046816

And why are you ignoring Relativity when it comes to dating?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Here's an article on how soft tissue can survive the fossilization process: http://www.livescience.com/41537-t-rex-soft-tissue.html
From the very first paragraph:

That first paragraph should state it clearly: the entirety of the dinosaur was fossilized, but the soft tissue was found INSIDE the fossil.
That proves that your claim is completely unfounded.

And here's a response to that wild claim.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/deep-time.7922616/page-15#post-69046887
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Oh for heaven's sake. Do you have to keep demonstrating you complete and utter ignorance of Relativity?

Your the only one that fails to understand it, evidenced by the fact you only make ad-hominem attacks and never address the issues. You fool no one on this site but yourself. You just show how scared you are by ignoring the issue.
 
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lesliedellow

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Your the only one that fails to understand it, evidenced by the fact you only make ad-hominem attacks and never address the issues. You fool no one on this site but yourself. You just show how scared you are by ignoring the issue.

How many times have I seen people point out to you that the Theory of Relativity is irrelevant if both you and the thing you are dating are in the same frame of reference? It must be somewhere close to infinity by now.
 
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RickG

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And yet your formation theories are ALL being called into question. Only someone trying to ignore reality would ask what comet formation theories have to do with earth's formation theories, since they both derive from the same theories of solar system formation being called into question as we speak.

But any of you have yet to answer my other two posts.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/deep-time.7922616/page-15#post-69046887

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/deep-time.7922616/page-15#post-69046816

That would be because they are off topic. Please review the Moderators (Hammsters) post #316 concerning such posts. Thank you. :)
 
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-57

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Hey talks about stuff he doesn't know anything about dude...
1. Do you know what Dr. Schweizter actually discovered?
2. Do you know what steps she went through to recover it from the thigh bone?
3. Have you read anything about an actual experiment she conducted - which is how science works as opposed to Creationists throwing up their hands and saying, "how is that possible?!?!" - where she discovered a method of natural preservation?

Of course you don't. You appear to have a "Lucy was a chimp" level of understanding of her discovery. Did you notice where I referred to MOR-1125? Did you know what that meant? Did you take 10 seconds and Google it?

Of course you didn't.
Addressing number 3...
In a previous post somewhere around here on one of these threads I showed that a two year experiment wasn't quite long enough to draw the conclusion that iron adhesion would preserve the sample for 65+ MY's.
 
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-57

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I did notice nobody responded to your post. There are several serious questions pertaining to tissue preservation that the evos who post here simply ignored.

I'll post it agin for you.

For an experiment to really explain an effect lasting for millions of years, shouldn’t it gather enough time-related measurements to estimate the maximum time that iron-treated soft tissues could last? Only then could researchers directly compare that maximum time with fossils’ evolutionary ages. Schweitzer’s report did not show these kinds of results.

The scientific community has long shown its desperation to defend mainstream fossil ages against the short shelf-life of soft-tissue fossils. Will they now call upon blood iron to have preserved fossils in a way that these results don’t justify?

Iron does appear to preserve tissues, even keeping blood vessels intact at room temperature for two years. Could iron keep soft tissues intact for millions of years? At least four reasons show why the study’s results, amazing though they are, answer with a clear “No.”

First, “Ostrich vessels were incubated in a concentrated solution of red blood cell lysate,” according to the study authors. Their procedure involved extracting and purifying iron from blood. But ancient dinosaur and other fossils did not have the advantage of scientists treating their carcasses with a blood-soup concentrate.

Second, many of the still-fresh fossil biochemicals described in the literature do not show evidence of nearby iron. For example, researchers have encountered bone cells called osteocytes locked inside dinosaur bones, including a Triceratops horn core. These cells have fine, threadlike extensions that penetrate the bone’s mineral matrix through tiny tunnels called canaliculi. Could concentrated blood penetrate and preserve those almost inaccessible bone cells?

Schweitzer and her coauthors think so. They wrote, “In life, blood cells rich in iron-containing HB [hemoglobin] flow through vessels, and have access to bone osteocytes through the lacuna-canalicular network.” Yet, the study authors did not demonstrate this supposed access, they merely asserted it.

For example, have experiments shown that canaliculi can wick blood puree, despite having tiny diameters on the order of 0.0004 millimeters? Also, how could iron-rich preservative “have access to” tiny tunnels already clogged with osteocytes? Other examples of original soft tissues without these iron particles include mummified dinosaur and lizard skin.

Third, for experimental control, the Royal Society authors kept ostrich vessels in water to watch them rot. Does this resemble the burial conditions of dinosaurs, which are mostly dry today and have been primarily dry perhaps since the day of burial? Water accelerates tissue decay by providing for microbes and by facilitating degradative chemistry. So by adding water, these scientists may have rigged their “control” sample to show a higher-than-expected decay rate difference.

The researchers then compared their hemoglobin-soaked samples to the watered-down samples and wrote, “In our test model, incubation in HB increased ostrich vessel stability more than 240-fold, or more than 24000% over control conditions.” If both their control and test models used unrealistic conditions, then they dulled the edge of their entire argument.

Fourth, just because this iron increases the “resistance of these ‘fixed’ biomolecules to enzymatic or microbial digestion” does not necessarily mean that it increases resistance of these “fixed” biomolecules to degrading chemical reactions. In other words, these authors have again shown that iron inhibits microbes, but they did not show that it inhibits the oxidation and hydrolysis reactions known to relentlessly convert tissues into dust.

Plus, though they showed how iron ups resistance to microbes for two years, they did not show that it does so for millions of years. Getting these tissues to resist enzymes and microbes is the lowest hurdle. These results fail to demonstrate the next step—getting tissues to resist the laws of chemistry for unimaginable time spans.

While the study does show that iron helps preserve soft tissues, the results fall far short of the authors’ claim that this explains soft tissue persisting for millions of years. Concentrated blood and extra water may not approximate real conditions, iron is not always present with known original tissue fossils, and the scientists did not produce a useful time-to-dust estimate for their iron-encrusted tissues.

By showing that iron particles stuck to dinosaur blood vessels look similar to those attached to ostrich vessels, this research may explain how soft tissues have resisted disintegration for longer-than-expected intervals—for example, thousands of years.
 
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-57

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Your the only one that fails to understand it, evidenced by the fact you only make ad-hominem attacks and never address the issues. You fool no one on this site but yourself. You just show how scared you are by ignoring the issue.

I consider lesliedellow as one of the elect...a true believer.....yet deceived when it come to origins. Yes, he does make ad-hominem attacks when his science runs dry.
 
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Astrophile

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The problem is that the rock formed from volcanic processes has no bearing on when the sediments were laid down. Evidenced that thousands of fossils are found on the surface itself. Volcanic rock could have been there for millions of years before the sediments were laid down around and on top of them. This is the problem they will never admit too. Just as we see current sediments laid down around existing rock. So if 50,000 years from now they find a bone in the sediment - they will assume it is millions of years old because the surrounding rock dates to millions of years - even if the sediment was laid down a mere 50,000 years ago.

You are ignoring the fact that sedimentary rocks are found underneath datable volcanic rocks. What conclusion would you draw if you found a fossil bone, or a fossil ammonite, in sedimentary rocks ten metres below a volcanic lava flow that was dated at 65 million years old?
 
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Astrophile

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And yet your formation theories are ALL being called into question. Only someone trying to ignore reality would ask what comet formation theories have to do with earth's formation theories, since they both derive from the same theories of solar system formation being called into question as we speak.
I asked what comet formation theories have to do with the Moon's recession rate, not what they have to do with Earth formation theories.

Let me explain it again. The Moon's recession rate has been measured by laser ranging at 38.247±0.004 mm/yr; it is an empirical fact, which has been established since the Apollo missions of the 1970s. The fact that the Moon is receding from the Earth is due to tidal dissipation of energy in shallow seas at the present time; this is again a well established fact. Neither the fact of the Moon's recession nor its theoretical explanation depends on how or when the Earth and the Moon were formed.

As Joshua 1 9 pointed out, an 8th-grader could use the Moon's present distance and its present recession rate to calculate that the Moon and the Earth were close together between 1 and 10 billion years ago; he or she might then infer that the Earth-Moon system is between 1 and 10 billion years old.

If you have a hypothesis about the formation of the Earth-Moon system that leads to a greater recession rate in the past, or that allows the Moon to start its recession from a greater initial distance (thereby requiring a shorter time to reach its present distance), please present it. I shall be interested to see it.



I have not answered this post because biology and palaeontology are not my subjects; I am leaving the post to people like Rick G who know about these matters.


I have tried to answer this post (see post 333), although radiometric dating and stratigraphy are not really my subjects.

And why are you ignoring Relativity when it comes to dating?

Because radiometric dating is not my subject, and because, so far as I understand it, Relativity has nothing to do with radiometric dating.
 
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RickG

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Hello all.

How did science arrive at a date for the formation of the earth?
By dating the oldest known rocks on earth, moon rocks and meteorites they can get a pretty good idea of the age of the earth.
 
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AV1611VET

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By dating the oldest known rocks on earth, moon rocks and meteorites they can get a pretty good idea of the age of the earth.
Why would they have to date moon rocks and meteorites, if all they had to do is date earth rocks?

Wouldn't moon rocks and meteorites throw off the age of the earth?

For example, what if they dated the oldest earth rock at 3 billion years old, then found a 4 billion year old meteorite?

Based on those two rocks alone, what would the age of the earth be dated at?

I would assume logic would dictate 3 billion years old, since the meteorite could have been floating around for a million years in space.
 
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klutedavid

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Why would they have to date moon rocks and meteorites, if all they had to do is date earth rocks?

Wouldn't moon rocks and meteorites throw off the age of the earth?

For example, what if they dated the oldest earth rock at 3 billion years old, then found a 4 billion year old meteorite?

Based on those two rocks alone, what would the age of the earth be dated at?

I would assume logic would dictate 3 billion years old, since the meteorite could have been floating around for a million years in space.
Hello AV.

Which moon rocks belong to the moon and which of these moon rocks are meteorites?
 
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AV1611VET

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Hello AV.

Which moon rocks belong to the moon and which of these moon rocks are meteorites?
Beats me.

I'd like to know what they have to do with dating the earth.
 
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