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Deep Time

Justatruthseeker

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The recession of the Moon is a different matter from chronology based on counts of impact craters, but it is still of interest.

First, the Moon's recession rate is 38.247±0.004 mm/yr - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_acceleration. Since the Moon's mean distance is 384,400 km, the recession time is 10.05 billion years, more than twice the age of the Earth-Moon system.

However, the recession rate depends on the Moon's distance; according to Tim Thompson, who is himself quoting Don DeYoung, 'the rate of change of the lunar distance as a function of time must be proportional to the inverse 6th power of the lunar distance' - http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/moonrec.html. This talk of an inverse sixth power equation already looks beyond the range of most 8th-graders.

When one tries to analyse tidal dissipation in shallow seas, including the effects of plate tectonics, the calculations become, in Thompson's words, 'frightfully complicated', and well beyond the range of any 8th-grader; it is hardly surprising that, to quote Thompson again, 'it has taken over 100 years for physicists to generate the mathematical tools, and physical models, necessary to understand the problem.' However, Thompson's conclusion is 'Once all of the details are included in the physical models of the Earth-moon system, we can see that there is no fundamental conflict between the basic physics and an evolutionary time scale for the Earth-moon system.'

This is assuming all things have been constant since the beginning, yes? Since most theoreticians believe the moon was created from an object impacting with earth, the starting distance, velocity, etc are all simply assumptions used to make the math work with what we observe now. But being comet formation theories - and hence solar system formation theories are in serious trouble, the books are still open.

http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news113.html
"First of all we found evidence that the standard astronomical predictions for the origin of dust in comets, or at least the ones in this comet, appear to be incorrect."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliosphere
""The IBEX results are truly remarkable! What we are seeing in these maps does not match with any of the previous theoretical models of this region."
 
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Justatruthseeker

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No it doesn't. You want to think it does, but it doesn't.
Do you even know why soft tissue exists in fossils?

Because they ain't as old as they think they are, merely 45,000 years or so. But since they wont accept Relativity in their calculations of time and hence decay rates in the past - they can't figure out why their dating is so flawed and so just ignore the problem.

But the OP topic is about geological dating methods. You brought up the soft tissue.

Which calls into question the dating methods. Not one single person looked for soft tissue before it was found by accident, because one and all understood the impossibility of soft tissue existing for millions of years. Sure, since then they have come up with an excuse to ignore the implications, but Fairie Dust wont stand the test of time. And it is what happens to time that they fail to understand and why they can't figure out why their methods are flawed. Well they could figure it out, they just choose to ignore their own theoretical beliefs about the universe when it comes to dating.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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You don't really seem to be getting it....the soft tissue tell us your geological dating techniques are wrong.

No it doesn't. You're using the old Creationist canard of "They date fossils by the rocks they're found in and they date the rocks by the fossils they find in them."
 
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AV1611VET

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Perhaps Jesus would reply back with....Why did you deny the soft tissue? It's a no-brainer indication your dates are off.
My pastor says there are some 80 different methods that date the earth as no more than 6000 years old.

And of those 80, scientists pick only the ones that return deep time and reject the rest.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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No it doesn't. You're using the old Creationist canard of "They date fossils by the rocks they're found in and they date the rocks by the fossils they find in them."

Except you cant date fossils by the rocks they are found in. It is impossible to date sedimentary rock.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/earth/geology/dinosaur-bone-age1.htm
"Fossils, however, form in sedimentary rock -- sediment quickly covers a dinosaur's body, and the sediment and the bones gradually turn into rock. But this sediment doesn't typically include the necessary isotopes in measurable amounts. Fossils can't form in the igneous rock that usually does contain the isotopes. The extreme temperatures of the magma would just destroy the bones.So to determine the age of sedimentary rock layers, researchers first have to find neighboring layers of Earth that include igneous rock, such as volcanic ash."

The problem is that the rock formed from volcanic processes has no bearing on when the sediments were laid down. Evidenced that thousands of fossils are found on the surface itself. Volcanic rock could have been there for millions of years before the sediments were laid down around and on top of them. This is the problem they will never admit too. Just as we see current sediments laid down around existing rock. So if 50,000 years from now they find a bone in the sediment - they will assume it is millions of years old because the surrounding rock dates to millions of years - even if the sediment was laid down a mere 50,000 years ago.

And since 73% of the earth's surface is sedimentary rock, you begin to see the problem, if you have an open mind and are not blinded by Fairie Dust.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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....Nor iron adhesion.

Oh, so you do know. Well, you'll know that the iron in skin tissue preserved the soft tissue in the dead dinosaur before the rest of it could decay.
And you'll also know that this only happens to a minuscule amount of fossils, is nowhere near the norm and, I cannot stress this enough, does not to, in any way shape or form, disprove deep time! If it did, then ALL fossils found of prehistoric animals would have preserved soft tissue.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Oh, so you do know. Well, you'll know that the iron in skin tissue preserved the soft tissue in the dead dinosaur before the rest of it could decay.
And you'll also know that this only happens to a minuscule amount of fossils, is nowhere near the norm and, I cannot stress this enough, does not to, in any way shape or form, disprove deep time! If it did, then ALL fossils found of prehistoric animals would have preserved soft tissue.

For an experiment to really explain an effect lasting for millions of years, shouldn’t it gather enough time-related measurements to estimate the maximum time that iron-treated soft tissues could last? Only then could researchers directly compare that maximum time with fossils’ evolutionary ages. Schweitzer’s report did not show these kinds of results.

The scientific community has long shown its desperation to defend mainstream fossil ages against the short shelf-life of soft-tissue fossils. Will they now call upon blood iron to have preserved fossils in a way that these results don’t justify?

Iron does appear to preserve tissues, even keeping blood vessels intact at room temperature for two years. Could iron keep soft tissues intact for millions of years? At least four reasons show why the study’s results, amazing though they are, answer with a clear “No.”

First, “Ostrich vessels were incubated in a concentrated solution of red blood cell lysate,” according to the study authors. Their procedure involved extracting and purifying iron from blood. But ancient dinosaur and other fossils did not have the advantage of scientists treating their carcasses with a blood-soup concentrate.

Second, many of the still-fresh fossil biochemicals described in the literature do not show evidence of nearby iron. For example, researchers have encountered bone cells called osteocytes locked inside dinosaur bones, including a Triceratops horn core. These cells have fine, threadlike extensions that penetrate the bone’s mineral matrix through tiny tunnels called canaliculi. Could concentrated blood penetrate and preserve those almost inaccessible bone cells?

Schweitzer and her coauthors think so. They wrote, “In life, blood cells rich in iron-containing HB [hemoglobin] flow through vessels, and have access to bone osteocytes through the lacuna-canalicular network.” Yet, the study authors did not demonstrate this supposed access, they merely asserted it.

For example, have experiments shown that canaliculi can wick blood puree, despite having tiny diameters on the order of 0.0004 millimeters? Also, how could iron-rich preservative “have access to” tiny tunnels already clogged with osteocytes? Other examples of original soft tissues without these iron particles include mummified dinosaur and lizard skin.

Third, for experimental control, the Royal Society authors kept ostrich vessels in water to watch them rot. Does this resemble the burial conditions of dinosaurs, which are mostly dry today and have been primarily dry perhaps since the day of burial? Water accelerates tissue decay by providing for microbes and by facilitating degradative chemistry. So by adding water, these scientists may have rigged their “control” sample to show a higher-than-expected decay rate difference.

The researchers then compared their hemoglobin-soaked samples to the watered-down samples and wrote, “In our test model, incubation in HB increased ostrich vessel stability more than 240-fold, or more than 24000% over control conditions.” If both their control and test models used unrealistic conditions, then they dulled the edge of their entire argument.

Fourth, just because this iron increases the “resistance of these ‘fixed’ biomolecules to enzymatic or microbial digestion” does not necessarily mean that it increases resistance of these “fixed” biomolecules to degrading chemical reactions. In other words, these authors have again shown that iron inhibits microbes, but they did not show that it inhibits the oxidation and hydrolysis reactions known to relentlessly convert tissues into dust.

Plus, though they showed how iron ups resistance to microbes for two years, they did not show that it does so for millions of years. Getting these tissues to resist enzymes and microbes is the lowest hurdle. These results fail to demonstrate the next step—getting tissues to resist the laws of chemistry for unimaginable time spans.

While the study does show that iron helps preserve soft tissues, the results fall far short of the authors’ claim that this explains soft tissue persisting for millions of years. Concentrated blood and extra water may not approximate real conditions, iron is not always present with known original tissue fossils, and the scientists did not produce a useful time-to-dust estimate for their iron-encrusted tissues.

By showing that iron particles stuck to dinosaur blood vessels look similar to those attached to ostrich vessels, this research may explain how soft tissues have resisted disintegration for longer-than-expected intervals—for example, thousands of years.
 
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RickG

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We've been discussing the soft tissue dating method. The soft tissue found in dino...and other fossils...clearly indicate errors with the commonly used dating techniques.

There is no soft tissue dating method. The site where the fossils were contained were dated, not the fossils themselves. Keep in mind that this thread is about the differences in dating method procedures between that of mainstream science and creation science. It has nothing to do with soft tissue. It is also specific to the science of those dating methods and only the science. If you wish to present a specific dating method and express concerns about it the please do so. Thank you.
 
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-57

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Oh, so you do know. Well, you'll know that the iron in skin tissue preserved the soft tissue in the dead dinosaur before the rest of it could decay.
And you'll also know that this only happens to a minuscule amount of fossils, is nowhere near the norm and, I cannot stress this enough, does not to, in any way shape or form, disprove deep time! If it did, then ALL fossils found of prehistoric animals would have preserved soft tissue.

Sorry. Iron doesn't work. The access points in the bones are to small to allow the iron to enter.
 
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-57

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There is no soft tissue dating method. The site where the fossils were contained were dated, not the fossils themselves. Keep in mind that this thread is about the differences in dating method procedures between that of mainstream science and creation science. It has nothing to do with soft tissue. It is also specific to the science of those dating methods and only the science. If you wish to present a specific dating method and express concerns about it the please do so. Thank you.

Perhaps you don't get it...yet. The soft tissue clearly shows your pet dating techniques are flawed.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Sorry. Iron doesn't work. The access points in the bones are to small to allow the iron to enter.

... you do know that iron exists in the red blood cells, inside the animal, right?
 
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RickG

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You don't really seem to be getting it....the soft tissue tell us your geological dating techniques are wrong.

If you wish to discuss soft tissue then please start your own thread on that specific topic, I will be glad to join in on that discussion at such a time. Thank you.
 
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-57

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If you wish to discuss soft tissue then please start your own thread on that specific topic, I will be glad to join in on that discussion at such a time. Thank you.

I've been discussing why the soft tissue shows your dating techniques are bogus.
 
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RickG

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Perhaps you don't get it...yet. The soft tissue clearly shows your pet dating techniques are flawed.

This thread is not about soft tissue. It is about dating methods. If you think they are flawed then you need to explain how that specific dating method is flawed. Dinosaur fossils are not dated directly, the strata in which they are found is dated. Please address a specific dating method.
 
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RickG

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Attention:

I would like to ask that off topic comments not be addressed in such a way as to derail the threads topic. I encourage anyone to start a new thread on those topics if they wish to discuss them. Discussing dinosaur soft tissue is of interest to me as well and I would love to discuss it. However, this thread is not the place. Everyone's cooperation in keeping with the topic of this thread is appreciated. Thank you. :)
 
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