Deep Thoughts: Worse or Better off

[Ame]

So how do we discern the Spirit of Truth in all this. Yes sister, there is a diffrence between Christianity and Christians. Yes, there is a difference between Islam and Muslims. The same goes for all religions and their adherents. However, despite all these conditions, there is still a difference between good and evil. So let me ask you again, how do we discern the Spirit of Truth?

Simple explanation: universally you can't. One person's truth is always another persons lie. Even within Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Atheism, there is no one set view on what is "good" and what is "evil". All you can do is listen to your heart and your God and have faith.

 

[czach8]

I myself use Murtis during pujas and other forms of worship, so I see nothing wrong with so called "Idol worship"

The Meccans had a tendency to use anything as an object of worship. Do you agree with that? You see nothing wrong with "idol worship", but would you find it wrong if someone does not worship the same material image and form you worship? Just think about it brother.

True, but even then Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) kept prisoners of war as slaves until he finally defeated the Arabian Pagans.

Not necessarily so brother. If they accepted Islam, then he would free them. Any slave who wants freedom, can meaninglessly accept Islam, and then run away, but that was not the case. Muhammad and Muslims exemplified Islam in a good light, so slaves were willing to become Muslims.

In any case, during times of war, Muhammad refrained from killing prisoners of war, so the only recourse was to use them as slaves until there sentence was fulfilled, and then they were freed. We have the same patterns with our prison systems.

Male children were also sometimes murdered or sacrificed. Heck, Muhammad's own father was originally going to be sacrificed by Muhammad's grandfather to some sort of Pagan God worshiped in Arabia.

Really, I never came across this in his biography.

I'm willing to bet this still occurred quiet a bit after Muhammad's reformation of Arabia.

I'm willing to bet this still occurred quiet a bit after Muhammad's reformation of Arabia.

Not actually. The Muslims were obligated to pay Zakat which was used to provide money for the poor. This is a normal practice in Islam today.

Is there evidence of this?

Sure, prostitution was a big problem.

Politics in general are pretty corrupt.

Islamic jursiprudence was able to curtail such corruption.

I'm pretty sure that Arabian Paganism is a religion (though not a very organized one), and even then non-religious societies aren't that bad at all.

To believe that a material object has power, and that man should sin in front of the object was the core of Arabian paganism. The Arabian pagans denied that God was ominpotent, omnipresent, omniscient, and omnificent.

Other then by some of the very few Christian converts and Jewish tribes who lived in Arabia, Yahweh wasn't worshiped at all in pre-Islamic Arabia.

He sure was not, but the Meccans always knew it was Abraham who built the Kaba.

That's a bit debatable. However women (despite what common stereotypes of women in Islam tell us) were treated a lot better then before.

Then please debate, and if I am wrong, then I am wrong.

I Don't really know if that's true or not myself.

They provided for the poor by paying Zakat.

In my own personal opinion, they were way better off after Muhammad established Islam.

Agreed. Thanks bro. Peace.

 

[czach8]

From what I understand, many of Mohammed's reforms were quite progressive, albeit limited by the social framework of the society he lived in. This is quite similar to the reforms of Jesus.

'Better' is of course subjective. It certainly wasn't better for the polytheists for example. But in general, most of what Mohammed did was an improvement.

Sadly, as with Christianity, these social reforms quickly gave way to dogma within a few generations, and used the new figurehead (be it Mohammed or Jesus) for justication and authority of actions that might well be condemned by those figureheads.

Agreed.

 

[czach8]

All you can do is listen to your heart and your God and have faith.

So then the heart is universal? Can you explain to me what is the image and likeness of God?

 

[Ame]

So then the heart is universal? Can you explain to me what is the image and likeness of God?

"Listen to your heart" as in what God is telling you. Though when you think about it listening to your heart is universal, since we all (hopefully) have a heartbeat.
The image of God is impossible to put into any remotely universal image. Everybody, even within the same religion and even denomination views Him/Her/It/Nothing differently. If you take my views of God and Jesus and compare them with any random other Christian, there will be many differences, even though we follow the same deity.

 

[czach8]

"Listen to your heart" as in what God is telling you. Though when you think about it listening to your heart is universal, since we all (hopefully) have a heartbeat.
The image of God is impossible to put into any remotely universal image. Everybody, even within the same religion and even denomination views Him/Her/It/Nothing differently. If you take my views of God and Jesus and compare them with any random other Christian, there will be many differences, even though we follow the same deity.

Actually, the image of God is the Spirit, and His likeness is the heart. We all have God in us, and that is proof His Word is universal. I was hoping you would give me that answer.

You are right though, Christians do not view things the same way other Christians do. However, Jesus said the mysteries of God are at hand, and only the Holy Spirit can reveal the universal mysteries in us. All we have to do is open our heart to God.

Peace and God bless.

 

[français]

thanks everyone for the responses!!

people called Jesus a false prophet, yes. but no one said He was a madman.

most of the criticism of Jesus was jelousy too, actually.

 

[czach8]

thanks everyone for the responses!!

people called Jesus a false prophet, yes. but no one said He was a madman.

most of the criticism of Jesus was jelousy too, actually.

The Pharisees called Jesus the prince of Belzebul. That obviously equates to a madman.

 

[anatolian]

Honestly, many of my brothers and sister may object to this, but I think if every human being on earth became muslim I do not thing the world would change with fighting and violence.
.

yes anyway I mean if everyone accepts islam and lives true islamic life..

 

[yourfriend58]

there's no doubt that he changed arabia, and changed it from Paganism to monotheism, and made it a place of some morality (considering they had little morality at that time.) but nevertheless, even the people who knew Mohammad thought he was a madman.. look what the qu'ran says!!



052.029
YUSUFALI: Therefore proclaim thou the praises (of thy Lord): for by the Grace of thy Lord, thou art no (vulgar) soothsayer, nor art thou one possessed.
PICKTHAL: Therefor warn (men, O Muhammad). By the grace of Allah thou art neither soothsayer nor madman.
SHAKIR: Therefore continue to remind, for by the grace of your Lord, you are not a soothsayer, or a madman.

015.006
YUSUFALI: They say: "O thou to whom the Message is being revealed! truly thou art mad (or possessed)!
PICKTHAL: And they say: O thou unto whom the Reminder is revealed, lo! thou art indeed a madman!
SHAKIR: And they say: O you to whom the Reminder has been revealed! you are most surely insane:

023.025
YUSUFALI: (And some said): "He is only a man possessed: wait (and have patience) with him for a time."
PICKTHAL: He is only a man in whom is a madness, so watch him for a while.
SHAKIR: He is only a madman, so bear with him for a time.

044.014
YUSUFALI: Yet they turn away from him and say: "Tutored (by others), a man possessed!"
PICKTHAL: And they had turned away from him and said: One taught (by others), a madman?
SHAKIR: Yet they turned their backs on him and said: One taught (by others), a madman.

051.039
YUSUFALI: But (Pharaoh) turned back with his Chiefs, and said, "A sorcerer, or one possessed!"
PICKTHAL: But he withdrew (confiding) in his might, and said: A wizard or a madman.
SHAKIR: But he turned away with his forces and said: A magician or a mad man.

051.052
YUSUFALI: Similarly, no messenger came to the Peoples before them, but they said (of him) in like manner, "A sorcerer, or one possessed"!
PICKTHAL: Even so there came no messenger unto those before them but they said: A wizard or a madman!
SHAKIR: Thus there did not come to those before them a messenger but they said: A magician or a mad man.

052.029
YUSUFALI: Therefore proclaim thou the praises (of thy Lord): for by the Grace of thy Lord, thou art no (vulgar) soothsayer, nor art thou one possessed.
PICKTHAL: Therefor warn (men, O Muhammad). By the grace of Allah thou art neither soothsayer nor madman.
SHAKIR: Therefore continue to remind, for by the grace of your Lord, you are not a soothsayer, or a madman.

054.009
YUSUFALI: Before them the People of Noah rejected (their messenger): they rejected Our servant, and said, "Here is one possessed!", and he was driven out.
PICKTHAL: The folk of Noah denied before them, yea, they denied Our slave and said: A madman; and he was repulsed.
SHAKIR: Before them the people of Nuh rejected, so they rejected Our servant and called (him) mad, and he was driven away.

068.002
YUSUFALI: Thou art not, by the Grace of thy Lord, mad or possessed.
PICKTHAL: Thou art not, for thy Lord's favour unto thee, a madman.
SHAKIR: By the grace of your Lord you are not mad.

The verses you mentioned are a testimony from God Almighty that the prophet Muhamad( peace be upon Him) is not a mad man

 

[dnihila]

Every prophet has suffered from humilations and he heard bad words starting from Noah (PBUH) when he was building the ship in the desert and they proclaimed that he was mad. Prophet Lot (PBUH) when he have angels as guests in his house that he offered them the roast calf and their hands didn't reach it because they are not humans they are angels . He was terrified and they told him they will punish his whole nation and the whole village and they asked him to leave the village and never tell his wife for she was with those bad people. The place of their punishment is still a living proof which is the Dead Sea. They didn't listen to him but they asked him (PBUH) to allow them to have relations with his guests who are actually ANGELS because they were so pretty and he offered his dear daughters for them but they refused.
And prophet Jesus (PBUH) that they plotted against him to kill him and his mother when she delivered him they said that she comitted adultry Peace Be Upon Them All. And Look How people mistreat honest and truthful prophets in their presence but when they died they started thinking about them and adoring them????

 

[LoveAlways]

if all mankind accept islam and live the true islamic life then the world would be a paradise..

For straight males.

 

[LoveAlways]

Before the advent of Islam, many abominable things were occuring in Mecca. For instance:

1. meaningless idol worship was prevalent
2. slaves were mistreated and abused
3. uwanted female infants were murdered
4. the rich oppressed the poor
5. adultery was rampant
6. politics was corrupted
7. there was no religion

After Islam was established, the following occurred:

1. the worship of the Yahweh is reinstated
2. all people were treated equally
3. all infants regardless of gender were considered a reward from Allah
4. the poor were provided for
5. adultery was eliminated
6. justice was maintained in the political system
7. Islam was a means of spiritual developement

Now there are many members who consider Islam as an evil religion. For instance, most Christians truly believe Muhammad was guided by Satan. Now that you know the circumstances before and after the establishment of Islam, I would like such people to utilize their deep thoughts, and frankly answer this question. Were the people of Mecca better off before the establishment of Islam or after the establishment of Islam? In other words, were they more evil before Islam or were they more evil after Islam?

I am looking foward to read your deep thoughts.

There's no such thing as "better off with Islam." Sorry.

 

[czach8]

There's no such thing as "better off with Islam." Sorry.

So then are you saying they are worse off? If Muslims revert back to idol worship, will you condemn them or say "there is no such thing as worse off"?

 

[czach8]

Is this it? Christians have nothing to say? I wonder why?

 

[0rion]

if all mankind accept islam and live the true islamic life then the world would be a paradise..

if all mankind were educated and in turn become atheists, then the world would be a better place.

 

[czach8]

if all mankind were educated and in turn become atheists, then the world would be a better place.

Yeaaaah, I use to be an atheist, but it didn't work out. All atheism did was give me an excuse to sin more without knowing what would become of me in the next world. Now I fear God, and I am looking foward to something hopeful in the next life. Peace.

 

[0rion]

Yeaaaah, I use to be an atheist, but it didn't work out. All atheism did was give me an excuse to sin more without knowing what would become of me in the next world. Now I fear God, and I am looking foward to something hopeful in the next life. Peace.

I said if all mankind were educated, and as a result of that become atheists... you were an atheist for the wrong reasons, an irrational atheist.

 

[Raul7]

I said if all mankind were educated, and as a result of that become atheists... you were an atheist for the wrong reasons, an irrational atheist.

I don't see the benefit, atheists are usually bitter and miserable.

 

[glo1]

if all mankind were educated and in turn become atheists, then the world would be a better place.

I have heard atheists say this, and I understand why they might think so.
And, given the atrocities, wars and crimes which are committed world-wide in the name of God and religion, all of us 'believers' would do well to ponder this statement!

However, I don't think you are right.
Fighting for survival, land and resources are intrinsic to human nature. Eradicating religion from our lives would not overcome the human desire to control and destroy.

On the contrary, by turning away from God's peace, grace and love, we would turn this world into an even more hopeless and helpless place!

(Just my personal thoughts, of course)

glo