Deep Thoughts: Worse or Better off

[czach8]

Before the advent of Islam, many abominable things were occuring in Mecca. For instance:

1. meaningless idol worship was prevalent
2. slaves were mistreated and abused
3. uwanted female infants were murdered
4. the rich oppressed the poor
5. adultery was rampant
6. politics was corrupted
7. there was no religion

After Islam was established, the following occurred:

1. the worship of the Yahweh is reinstated
2. all people were treated equally
3. all infants regardless of gender were considered a reward from Allah
4. the poor were provided for
5. adultery was eliminated
6. justice was maintained in the political system
7. Islam was a means of spiritual developement

Now there are many members who consider Islam as an evil religion. For instance, most Christians truly believe Muhammad was guided by Satan. Now that you know the circumstances before and after the establishment of Islam, I would like such people to utilize their deep thoughts, and frankly answer this question. Were the people of Mecca better off before the establishment of Islam or after the establishment of Islam? In other words, were they more evil before Islam or were they more evil after Islam?

I am looking foward to read your deep thoughts.

 

[Ame]

As with the introduction of any organized religion into any area, there are always positive and negative results. Of course if a religion helps people to find peace and grace in God or whoever, then it is something to rejoice over. Yet Islam has it's share of pitfalls and conflicts that it brought to the world like all religions. Just look at Christianity and it's resulting Crusades, Inquisitions, Witch Hunts, etc. No religion is free from fault.

 

[ibn_leroy]

As with the introduction of any organized religion into any area, there are always positive and negative results. Of course if a religion helps people to find peace and grace in God or whoever, then it is something to rejoice over. Yet Islam has it's share of pitfalls and conflicts that it brought to the world like all religions. Just look at Christianity and it's resulting Crusades, Inquisitions, Witch Hunts, etc. No religion is free from fault.

No religion brings conflict to the world in and of itself. You have to be careful about the fallacy of personification. Christianity didn't "do" the Crusades, Inquisitions, Witch Hunts, etc.; Christians did. Particular kinds of Christians with particular kinds of interests. For example, Arab Christians had nothing to do with the Crusades; they were victimized along with Jews and Muslims by the European occupiers, who were Christianized centuries after Syria was. Ethiopan Christians never justified slavery and racism; they themselves were black, and predated American Protestants by over a thousand years. So, there's no way anyone can reasonably point the finger at Christianity per se as the underlying cause of these, despite the fact that they were indeed Biblically justified in the minds of the perpetrators. It can be said that European Crusaders and American racists were acting in a way attributable to their Christian beliefs, but that would be a very unfair and oversimplified understanding of history.

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

To Ame,

You still didnt answer the OP's question but rather evaded with a smoke screen.

czach8 thanks for this thread.

I am really interested in seeing the responses that will tell you the mind set of some.

 

[français]

there's no doubt that he changed arabia, and changed it from Paganism to monotheism, and made it a place of some morality (considering they had little morality at that time.) but nevertheless, even the people who knew Mohammad thought he was a madman.. look what the qu'ran says!!



052.029
YUSUFALI: Therefore proclaim thou the praises (of thy Lord): for by the Grace of thy Lord, thou art no (vulgar) soothsayer, nor art thou one possessed.
PICKTHAL: Therefor warn (men, O Muhammad). By the grace of Allah thou art neither soothsayer nor madman.
SHAKIR: Therefore continue to remind, for by the grace of your Lord, you are not a soothsayer, or a madman.

015.006
YUSUFALI: They say: "O thou to whom the Message is being revealed! truly thou art mad (or possessed)!
PICKTHAL: And they say: O thou unto whom the Reminder is revealed, lo! thou art indeed a madman!
SHAKIR: And they say: O you to whom the Reminder has been revealed! you are most surely insane:

023.025
YUSUFALI: (And some said): "He is only a man possessed: wait (and have patience) with him for a time."
PICKTHAL: He is only a man in whom is a madness, so watch him for a while.
SHAKIR: He is only a madman, so bear with him for a time.

044.014
YUSUFALI: Yet they turn away from him and say: "Tutored (by others), a man possessed!"
PICKTHAL: And they had turned away from him and said: One taught (by others), a madman?
SHAKIR: Yet they turned their backs on him and said: One taught (by others), a madman.

051.039
YUSUFALI: But (Pharaoh) turned back with his Chiefs, and said, "A sorcerer, or one possessed!"
PICKTHAL: But he withdrew (confiding) in his might, and said: A wizard or a madman.
SHAKIR: But he turned away with his forces and said: A magician or a mad man.

051.052
YUSUFALI: Similarly, no messenger came to the Peoples before them, but they said (of him) in like manner, "A sorcerer, or one possessed"!
PICKTHAL: Even so there came no messenger unto those before them but they said: A wizard or a madman!
SHAKIR: Thus there did not come to those before them a messenger but they said: A magician or a mad man.

052.029
YUSUFALI: Therefore proclaim thou the praises (of thy Lord): for by the Grace of thy Lord, thou art no (vulgar) soothsayer, nor art thou one possessed.
PICKTHAL: Therefor warn (men, O Muhammad). By the grace of Allah thou art neither soothsayer nor madman.
SHAKIR: Therefore continue to remind, for by the grace of your Lord, you are not a soothsayer, or a madman.

054.009
YUSUFALI: Before them the People of Noah rejected (their messenger): they rejected Our servant, and said, "Here is one possessed!", and he was driven out.
PICKTHAL: The folk of Noah denied before them, yea, they denied Our slave and said: A madman; and he was repulsed.
SHAKIR: Before them the people of Nuh rejected, so they rejected Our servant and called (him) mad, and he was driven away.

068.002
YUSUFALI: Thou art not, by the Grace of thy Lord, mad or possessed.
PICKTHAL: Thou art not, for thy Lord's favour unto thee, a madman.
SHAKIR: By the grace of your Lord you are not mad.

 

[baobobtree]

1. meaningless idol worship was prevalent

I myself use Murtis during pujas and other forms of worship, so I see nothing wrong with so called "Idol worship"

2. slaves were mistreated and abused

True, but even then Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) kept prisoners of war as slaves until he finally defeated the Arabian Pagans.

3. uwanted female infants were murdered

Male children were also sometimes murdered or sacrificed. Heck, Muhammad's own father was originally going to be sacrificed by Muhammad's grandfather to some sort of Pagan God worshiped in Arabia.

4. the rich oppressed the poor

I'm willing to bet this still occurred quiet a bit after Muhammad's reformation of Arabia.

5. adultery was rampant

Is there evidence of this?

6. politics was corrupted

Politics in general are pretty corrupt.

7. there was no religion

I'm pretty sure that Arabian Paganism is a religion (though not a very organized one), and even then non-religious societies aren't that bad at all.

After Islam was established, the following occurred:

1. the worship of the Yahweh is reinstate

Other then by some of the very few Christian converts and Jewish tribes who lived in Arabia, Yahweh wasn't worshiped at all in pre-Islamic Arabia.

2. all people were treated equally

That's a bit debatable. However women (despite what common stereotypes of women in Islam tell us) were treated a lot better then before.

3. all infants regardless of gender were considered a reward from Allah

An extremely good thing indeed (especially considering how they were treated before).

4. the poor were provided for

I Don't really know if that's true or not myself.

5. adultery was eliminated

Well I'm not too sure about that, but it was probably reduced by quiet a bit.

6. justice was maintained in the political system

Once again, I don't really know about whether or not that's true.

Were the people of Mecca better off before the establishment of Islam or after the establishment of Islam? In other words, were they more evil before Islam or were they more evil after Islam?

In my own personal opinion, they were way better off after Muhammad established Islam.

 

[AlanGurvey]

Before the advent of Islam, many abominable things were occuring in Mecca. For instance:

1. meaningless idol worship was prevalent
7. there was no religion.

No wonder people are fleeing this forum.

 

[Ryal Kane]

From what I understand, many of Mohammed's reforms were quite progressive, albeit limited by the social framework of the society he lived in. This is quite similar to the reforms of Jesus.

'Better' is of course subjective. It certainly wasn't better for the polytheists for example. But in general, most of what Mohammed did was an improvement.

Sadly, as with Christianity, these social reforms quickly gave way to dogma within a few generations, and used the new figurehead (be it Mohammed or Jesus) for justication and authority of actions that might well be condemned by those figureheads.

 

[anatolian]

if all mankind accept islam and live the true islamic life then the world would be a paradise..

 

[Raul7]

there's no doubt that he changed arabia, and changed it from Paganism to monotheism, and made it a place of some morality (considering they had little morality at that time.) but nevertheless, even the people who knew Mohammad thought he was a madman.. look what the qu'ran says!!

Are you that ignorant and biased!?

All of God's prophets and messengers were mocked in one way or another, some were killed and others God saved only to destroy their tribes.

Alas for My servants! No messenger comes to them without their mocking him. (Surah Ya Sin, 30)

And to Muhammad (peace be upon him)-

Messengers before you were mocked. I gave those who did not believe a little more time, and then I seized them. How terrible was My retribution! (Surat ar-Ra'd, 32)

Think before you post.

 

[anatolian]

Yes people thought so just like the people of the old prophets...reember the clerics 'thought' that Jesus was a demon possesed man...

 

[Ryal Kane]

if all mankind accept islam and live the true islamic life then the world would be a paradise..

Which is pretty much the same claim made by every religion in the world: "If everyone just believed exactly what we believed then it would be a paradise."

Sadly this is seldom the case as demonstradted in the conflict between Catholics and Protestants or between Sunni and Shia.

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

Mohammad thought he was a madman.. look what the qu'ran says!!

Madman in the Quranic text is majnoon that also means possessed or demonized. And the Jews thaught of Jesus the same..look what the Bible says :

Mark 3:22

And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Beelzebub ! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons."

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

Honestly, many of my brothers and sister may object to this, but I think if every human being on earth became muslim I do not thing the world would change with fighting and violence.

Even now muslims, Christians and Jews fight among themselves and cut each others throat. One group fighting for politcal gain, or madh'hab dominance.

Even during the time of our Prophet muslims still fought each other, either over how the Quran was recited, or how someone performed a religious act.

The Khalifahs, the Companions of the Prophet, were killed by their own muslim brothers. Through out the centuries there has ever been civil wars between muslims.

Even today when in some masjids, pakistanies, and arabs dont like to even stand next to each other for the Salatul-Jam'a.

There will always be the Shaytaan Arrajeem whispering into the souls of men to do evil, to think evil, and to follow his footsteps, this is his respite and he was granted this.

The Quran and Sunnah teach how to live but many muslims only follow what they want out of the teachings and adhere more to culture and tradition other than deen.

 

[Ame]

No religion brings conflict to the world in and of itself. You have to be careful about the fallacy of personification. Christianity didn't "do" the Crusades, Inquisitions, Witch Hunts, etc.; Christians did. Particular kinds of Christians with particular kinds of interests. For example, Arab Christians had nothing to do with the Crusades; they were victimized along with Jews and Muslims by the European occupiers, who were Christianized centuries after Syria was. Ethiopan Christians never justified slavery and racism; they themselves were black, and predated American Protestants by over a thousand years. So, there's no way anyone can reasonably point the finger at Christianity per se as the underlying cause of these, despite the fact that they were indeed Biblically justified in the minds of the perpetrators. It can be said that European Crusaders and American racists were acting in a way attributable to their Christian beliefs, but that would be a very unfair and oversimplified understanding of history.

I didn't mean it as how "religion" per say brings conflict, but how the addition of another religion where every single person isn't in agreement of it usually causes the warefare/struggles/Bible-thumpers.

To Ame,

You still didnt answer the OP's question but rather evaded with a smoke screen.

czach8 thanks for this thread.

I am really interested in seeing the responses that will tell you the mind set of some.

No, I said that I'm indifferent since there both positive and negative aspects came out of the introduction of Islam. Yes, it may have introduced positive ideas in the midst of chaos, but it also gave more people the reason to conquor/invade/kill/hate.

 

[ibn_leroy]

I didn't mean it as how "religion" per say brings conflict, but how the addition of another religion where every single person isn't in agreement of it usually causes the warefare/struggles/Bible-thumpers.

What I was getting at is that when we look at objectionable expressions of any religion (or ideology), human nature is the common denominator. Nominal identification with a religion may provide the terms by which one defines the world, but despite the terms being variable certain tendencies remain constant. For example, Charlamagne very brutally forced the Saxons to convert to Christianity. I don't doubt his sincerity, but really, if he were their fellow pagan do you think that would have stopped him from conquering? Of course not. The man was aggressive, and aggression is a human problem. If the aggression wasn't vented through Christianity, it would have been through something else.

 

[czach8]

As with the introduction of any organized religion into any area, there are always positive and negative results. Of course if a religion helps people to find peace and grace in God or whoever, then it is something to rejoice over. Yet Islam has it's share of pitfalls and conflicts that it brought to the world like all religions. Just look at Christianity and it's resulting Crusades, Inquisitions, Witch Hunts, etc. No religion is free from fault.

So how do we discern the Spirit of Truth in all this. Yes sister, there is a diffrence between Christianity and Christians. Yes, there is a difference between Islam and Muslims. The same goes for all religions and their adherents. However, despite all these conditions, there is still a difference between good and evil. So let me ask you again, how do we discern the Spirit of Truth?

 

[czach8]

No religion brings conflict to the world in and of itself. You have to be careful about the fallacy of personification. Christianity didn't "do" the Crusades, Inquisitions, Witch Hunts, etc.; Christians did. Particular kinds of Christians with particular kinds of interests. For example, Arab Christians had nothing to do with the Crusades; they were victimized along with Jews and Muslims by the European occupiers, who were Christianized centuries after Syria was. Ethiopan Christians never justified slavery and racism; they themselves were black, and predated American Protestants by over a thousand years. So, there's no way anyone can reasonably point the finger at Christianity per se as the underlying cause of these, despite the fact that they were indeed Biblically justified in the minds of the perpetrators. It can be said that European Crusaders and American racists were acting in a way attributable to their Christian beliefs, but that would be a very unfair and oversimplified understanding of history.

Agreed.

 

[czach8]

To Ame,

You still didnt answer the OP's question but rather evaded with a smoke screen.

czach8 thanks for this thread.

I am really interested in seeing the responses that will tell you the mind set of some.

If the truth is at hand, why deny it. Again, most Christians will be scared to enter this thread because their truth is not universal but rather selective and restricted to a certain religion.

 

[czach8]

there's no doubt that he changed arabia, and changed it from Paganism to monotheism, and made it a place of some morality (considering they had little morality at that time.) but nevertheless, even the people who knew Mohammad thought he was a madman.. look what the qu'ran says!!

I cannot believe brother that you would stoop so low. The verses you provided are so out of context that even a 3 year old can understand the difference. You very well know the Pharisees condemned Jesus as a madman, and you are no different than a Pharisee. When Jesus brought something good, the Pharisees condemned him. When Muhammad does the same, you condemn him as well.

Peace and God bless.