Deconversion?

[DannyOcean]

Your definition of religion makes everyone's beliefs become a religion. Perhaps you may want to redefine your definition a bit. Christianity is not a faith based upon rituals and rules per normal concepts of religion; but, it is a personal relationship with God. That is why it is not a religion per the usual language. We don't have lists of dos and don'ts to follow. We follow by spirit and not rules per se. I hope that you understand. It is the personal relationship that separates us from the normative religious perspective. Our faith is not directly related to cultural and social norms where there are stringent rules to follow.

I'm not sure I follow this line of thinking. Aren't there rituals and rules involved in Christianity? The ten commandments, the golden rule, the greatest commandment (love the lord + one another) are all a set of rules to live by. And there are a number of rituals such as baptism, communion, religious attendance on sunday, etc. Those seem to be rituals and rules to me. Obviously a relationship with god seems to be the central aspect, by saying you don't live by rules seems quite strange. Of course you do, and the bible details quite a few of them.

 

[Thekla]

The central relationship with God produces and ethos which results in the living out of what some see as "rules".

Likewise, the edges of the path are bounded by signposts which allow one to see a warning against what undermines relationship and when one is 'in danger'.

 

[suzybeezy]

And that is what makes it so very hard to keep going when the relationship isn't there any longer... it isn't a religion you can just go on practicing and hope to get through. It is a relationship, and when that goes, when you can't convince yourself that it is two-way any longer, then the whole thing just falls down...

What you are referring to is those "quiet" times in God. Its common to feel like God isn't speakin' at those times, especially if you feel you have a current life stuggle, but oddly enough this is when the most work is being accomplished. You acknowledge you had that relationship and we need to hang on to the memory of what He has established in us to help us endure during those quiet times.

Are you satisfied with His will? Do you trust in him that even though you may have struggles, that He has you in the right place? Where is our hope, is it on Him alone? Dissatisfaction is within us. Even though some of our circumstances may be tough to swallow at times, we need to learn how to eat at His table with joy.

I shared with you privately a little of what's been going on in my life this year, and while I have my moments of despair, I trust that God has me in His hands and that He's allowing these things in my life for a reason (even if I don't understand it). I rely on the things that I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that He brought me through previously. I look back and think of how much he's matured me through some pretty hideous moments in life. I know see those struggles as a blessings cause without them, I wouldn't be the same person. I use this example, most people know I have a son with cerebral palsy. While the journey with him has been tough, I don't think I'd change it if I could, because what I and my son have learned through it is immeasurable. As crazy as it sounds, its been a blessing. During the early years when we didn't know if he would walk, I didn't feel so joyful, but I help on to the trust in God that my child was in his hands and he knew what he was doing. And praise be to God, he did - my son does walk and learned the most amazing lesson that God does answer prayers.

Our faith is being challenged. The darkness around us is getting darker. We may suffer or struggle and it may be difficult, but we can overcome. There is HOPE!

Here's a great study on Psalms 13 to read: Psalm 13 - “How Long? How Long?”: Feeling Abandoned

You are a very special lady and have helped so many. I pray that the words spoken in this thread from those who truly care for you, will resinate in your heart and that you will find the strength to endure and be rejuvenated in your faith.

 

[sk8Joyful]

And that is what makes it so very hard to keep going, when the relationship isn't there any longer... then the whole thing just falls down

Hi Sarah
Well, God did say he's never-changing, meaning He's always, beside you all the way.
So, just stay close by His side, and the whole thing inevitably rises back up! yeah!

 

[peaceful soul]

I just wanted to let people like Catherineanne and a couple of other people who were kind and prayed for me, know that I've decided to reconsider my diversion from the Christian faith and take my concerns back to my church, that I am more equipped to deal with the issues I face in the Church than outside of it.

I go to an Anglican church and my Priest has been on vacation for 6 weeks, my agoraphobia really keeps me steering clear of "change" (the substitute priest is nice and kind but I just couldn't make myself go still for 5 of the 6 weeks).. but my priest comes back TOMORROW and I've already emailed him what I've been going through.

So yeah. I appreciate the prayers from a few people around here, and wanted to let you know.

That's encouraging to hear. I hope that you can rectify things on God's terms, if you know what I mean. Too often, we want them rectified according to our POVs. Let God deal with you on this matter. It may require some difficult changes, but you must let Him order things for you. I do hope that others that are struggling can come to terms with God by letting Him fix the matter(s); for He knows what is best for us.

 

[Philothei]

It is a relationship, and when that goes, when you can't convince yourself that it is two-way any longer, then the whole thing just falls down...

In what way it was two way that it is not any longer? I am wondering what also was like before when there was a relationship. I am only trying to understand this.

 

[gratefulgrace]

I'm not sure I follow this line of thinking. Aren't there rituals and rules involved in Christianity? The ten commandments, the golden rule, the greatest commandment (love the lord + one another) are all a set of rules to live by. And there are a number of rituals such as baptism, communion, religious attendance on sunday, etc. Those seem to be rituals and rules to me. Obviously a relationship with god seems to be the central aspect, by saying you don't live by rules seems quite strange. Of course you do, and the bible details quite a few of them.

I agree there does seem to be a bit of tension between these two thoughts. However I think the ritual or the forms are there as a bridge for us during times when God seems distant and we seem left alone. I know that going to church does not save my soul or make me holy, however I also know that when I go to church I get a sense of grounding and strength in meeting with others that supports my relationship with God even in the bumpy times. Maybe this is why the Catholic church is so big on liturgy and forms of worship. I am not a catholic so not sure about that. gg

 

[sk8Joyful]

Aren't there rules involved in Christianity? The ten commandments, the golden rule, the greatest commandment (love the lord + one another) are all a set of rules to live by.
And there are a number of rituals such as baptism, communion, religious attendance on sunday, etc.

There's a vast difference between the WISDOM of God's "rules", vs. rituals concocted by men.

God's laws, & suggestions focus His kids in the right=love direction, into more faith, charity & hope.

The same can not be said of men's schemes, evidently.

 

[DannyOcean]

sk8 and gg,

I understand what the two of you are saying. I was mostly confused by peaceful soul's opinion that christianity is not a religion because it does not have rules and rituals, which I found strange since Christianity is obviously a religion with many rules and rituals. It makes sense to argue for the primacy of god over any rules and rituals, but it seemed like he was ignoring that the rules and rituals existed entirely.

 

[sk8Joyful]

There was one book that I read when God decided to be silent and hide from me.

I do worship a different God, because my God never hides from His children. He loves us too much. PRAISE God.

"Reaching for the Invisible God" by Philip Yancey. The best book for seeking after God when you feel that He isn't really there.
starts chapter one is "Oh God, I don't love you, I don't even want to love you,
but I want to want to love you!"

What about GOD does not merit our love... PRAISE God

 

[Criada]

I do worship a different God, because my God never hides from His children. He loves us too much. PRAISE God.


What about GOD does not merit our love... PRAISE God

I am very glad that you haven't experienced any 'desert times'. But, denying the validity of what others are experiencing really isn't helpful.

 

[sk8Joyful]

I am very glad that you haven't experienced any 'desert times'.
But, denying the validity of what others are experiencing really isn't helpful.

Dear Sarah,
I have been 'stuck in man-made deserts' many times;
but
never because God abandons. God's perfect LOVE forbids it, you know.

 

[A New Dawn]

I am very glad that you haven't experienced any 'desert times'. But, denying the validity of what others are experiencing really isn't helpful.

No advice. Just reading through the thread and wanting to affirm that desert times are real and they are painful. Praying for you.

 

[b&wpac4]

Dear Sarah,
I have been 'stuck in deserts' many times; but
never because God abandoned me. God's perfect LOVE forbids it, you know.

Surely Isaiah would disagree with you. God told Isaiah that God was hiding His eyes from some people who were praying because their hands were full of blood.

 

[sk8Joyful]

Surely Isaiah would disagree with you. God told Isaiah that
God was hiding His eyes from some people who were praying because their hands were full of blood.

that God hides his eyes from people whose beliefs, thoughts, intentions, & actions are bloody,
is altogether different
from God's "converted Little-children" who Christ said "live in heaven ... & inherit my kingdom" PRAISE God

 

[b&wpac4]

that God hides his eyes from people whose beliefs, thoughts, intentions, & actions are bloody,
is altogether different
from God's "converted Little-children" who Christ said "live in heaven ... & inherit my kingdom" PRAISE God

It's clear from your response you don't know what I am referring to in Isaiah, or why their hands were full of blood.

 

[peaceful soul]

I'm not sure I follow this line of thinking. Aren't there rituals and rules involved in Christianity? The ten commandments, the golden rule, the greatest commandment (love the lord + one another) are all a set of rules to live by. And there are a number of rituals such as baptism, communion, religious attendance on sunday, etc. Those seem to be rituals and rules to me. Obviously a relationship with god seems to be the central aspect, by saying you don't live by rules seems quite strange. Of course you do, and the bible details quite a few of them.

The central relationship with God produces and ethos which results in the living out of what some see as "rules".

Likewise, the edges of the path are bounded by signposts which allow one to see a warning against what undermines relationship and when one is 'in danger'.

Thekla put it very well. What is not easily understood is that Christians are not to be burdened by rules. We are not an individual works based faith. That is why I say we are not religious. Jesus did all of the works for us. We just need to obey Him. The power of God is in us not by trying to do good things to please God; for, we can't please Him that way. It is the Holy Spirit that influences us to do works that God expects of us. The point is that man cannot please God without God, Himself, doing the work through us by depositing the ability for us to perform what He desires. The reality is that He is doing the work through us as we submit to Him via Jesus. We accept the works of Jesus instead of our own. We put our faith in Jesus and He completes the transaction on our behalf. The reality for us is that Jesus is doing the works, but we are trusting in Him.

The Ten Commandments are not really works based if you consider that God is telling us to be relational with Him instead of trying to do personal works. He is teaching us how to have a relationship with Him. He says love thy neighbor and love Him with all of our being. We can't do that by trying to do rituals to justify ourselves before Him since that is impossible, given our fallen spiritual state. We trust Christ and He mediates for us. His personal works saves us. Of course, we want to do good works, but primarily because of Christ's influence on us via the Holy Spirit. We also are driven to do good works because God created us with that capacity, but we can't do them perfectly since we have motives involved other than to do them because we should be obedient. We have some personal gain in them. Sometimes it is very obvious while at other times, it is not so obvious to us. It is not until perhaps days, weeks, months, or years later that we can see our selfish motives because of our spiritual blindness.

As far as things such as baptism go, we do them because we want to please God. In most cases, there is no statue that says that we must do them or else. That is the essence of what I am trying to show you that makes Christianity not a religion as most people see it. We are motivated in many cases by God Himself and not ordered around like you will see in other disciplines that are labeled as religions.

I don't know if I have actually helped you understand at all, but I will keep trying to explain if I think it will help any. As a last resort, we can PM each other on this topic. I do feel bad that we are, in a sense, hijacking this topic; however, I do feel that people do need to see discussions like this. I suppose that we could also create another thread and continue. What do you think?

 

[Philothei]

Just to add to Peaceful Soul here. To be baptised or take communion are "rituals" that their meaning is our participation in Christ's life and resurrection. We do this not out of obligation but out of our own free will to be in communion with Him... It is like having a friend how can we claim to have one if we do not participate in His life...It is like participating in one's Birthday party , dinners etc. If the Christian sees that paricipation as a ritual then it loses its meaning. Are we performing a ritual when we are having a coffe at starbucks with a friend?? Maybe then we do...We do it out of love for our friend as we want to be with him. Like Peaceful Soul said it is out of love we decide to obey what Christ said and we keep His commandments not out of obligation for obligation gives us nothing but a 'skeleton' a form where we should build our relationship with Christ.

 

[azzy]

Deconverting.

IF You are a father,,can your son unbecome your son?

Your son may run away from home,,and join himself to other strangers,,but in his heart he will always know where home is at.

Can you unknow someone?

Once you have walked with them , talked with them and fellowshiped with them,,can you then unknow who they are?

No,,you cant.

If you knew who God was,,and walked with him,,and served him,,then the knowledge of God(who he is)will always be with you no matter where you go.

When you were saved,,you were made aware of God by the Holy Spirit,, something the world can not see.The world cant see nor know God.

so deconverting will mean an open rejection of that which you know in your heart to be true,,assuming you knew God and walked with him.If you were never saved to start with then your not deconverting,,just rejecting
what knowledge you have of God, and choosing not to embrace it nor follow after it.

you are choosing another path.

God told Israel,,I am married to you oh house of Israel,,yet you have played the harlot in worshipping the Gods/Goddesses of the nations round about you. So if you belong to Christ(the church is the Bride of Christ)and you choose to go searching for other Gods/Goddesses,,and if you embrace and worship them,,and call yourself after thier names,,then you will be commiting adultery agaisnt Christ,,who has called you to be his Bride

The choice is and will always be yours, to love God and to return the love he has given to you,, or to go elsewhere and search for whatever your soul is longing for. a woman who is asked by a man to marry him,,can say yes,,or no. she can apreciate his love and gifts to her,,except them and devote herself to this man,,or she can say no thanks. your not what Im looking for.

So what are you looking for?

What is it that makes you unhappy with the Lord?

Do you have any good memories where God came through for you and where you saw him help you and comfort you? Its hard to imagine a person getting saved and not at some point having a special moment with God,,where he embraced you and loved you and whispered a gentle word into your soul,,letting you know everything would be ok.

Have you had any of these moments?

May the God of Israel help you on your journey through life.

 

[Sojourner1]

I do worship a different God, because my God never hides from His children. He loves us too much. PRAISE God.

We aren't worshiping different Gods
Maybe God has never been silent for you, and if that is so you are fortunate. Many believers, however, have experienced His silence and have spent time in the desert. I am thankful for His silence because when He is silent my faith grows stronger. God rewards faithfulness and when we demonstrate our faith, even when He is silent, it is worth going through the desert. I believe that David also experienced God's silence and he wrote about it in the following verses:

Psalms 10:1
Why do You stand afar off, O LORD? Why do You hide in times of trouble?

Psalm 27:8,9
When You said, “Seek My face,”
My heart said to You, “Your face, LORD, I will seek.”
Do not hide Your face from me;
Do not turn Your servant away in anger;
You have been my help;
Do not leave me nor forsake me,
O God of my salvation.

Psalms 55:1
Give ear to my prayer, O God, And do not hide Yourself from my supplication.

What about GOD does not merit our love... PRAISE God

I think it's great that you are on the mountaintop. Being on the mountaintop with God is the best place to be. The problem is that in order to get on the mountaintop you have to go through the valley. Sometimes we go through a cycle of valleys and mountaintops. I believe that Sarah is in the valley right now and with the grace of God she will eventually be back up on the mountaintop. Those who are giving advice in this thread are helping her survive the valley and keep moving toward the mountain.