Deconversion?

Tinker Grey · Nov 28, 2009

Yes, it was directed at you. Perhaps I'm too sensitive on this issue; and I won't derail this thread further beyond this post.

It doesn't require "faith" to not believe stuff. It doesn't require faith to not believe in leprechauns or unicorns or indeed any of a billion concepts that we haven't had time to consider.

Criada is experiencing (IMHO -- and Criada can correct me) a lack of faith, a loss of faith -- not a new faith.

I'm a little surprised that someone on this board isn't aware that non-theists and theists are constantly arguing whether not believing entails faith.

[/aside]

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

gratefulgrace · Nov 28, 2009

Criada said:
God isn't telling me anything, because he isn't there or isn't interested.
I've tried, I really have. I hate this.. I want to believe, but it doesn't work..
I know it isn't supposed to be easy.. I've held on through a lot of hard times. But this is different, it isn't case of not trusting, it's that the faith to believe there is someone there to trust has just.. gone.
I would do anything to get it back.. I am so lonely without God.. but, I can't make myself believe... and however much I pray and read the word, it's just empty.

Sorry.. not meaning to rant at anyone here... I appreciate your input and care... I just don't seem to be able to do it any longer. Sorry.

This reminds me of Charles Templetons conversation with author Lee Stobel (The Case for Faith)about his loss of faith. He had been a big evangelist in the early days and a contemporary of Billy Graham, even married my aunt and uncle in Toronto Canada where he pastored a Nazarene Church. He told Strobel that he desperately wanted to believe but could not. I just felt so sad when I read that. I am praying for a big time miracle for you Criada. Hope you don't mind. gg

Thekla · Nov 28, 2009

Tinker Grey said:
Yes, it was directed at you. Perhaps I'm too sensitive on this issue; and I won't derail this thread further beyond this post.

It doesn't require "faith" to not believe stuff. It doesn't require faith to not believe in leprechauns or unicorns or indeed any of a billion concepts that we haven't had time to consider.

Criada is experiencing (IMHO -- and Criada can correct me) a lack of faith, a loss of faith -- not a new faith.

I'm a little surprised that someone on this board isn't aware that non-theists and theists are constantly arguing whether not believing entails faith.

[/aside]

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

Ah. Well, I usually read and post in GT. Haven't experienced the discussions you've referred to there. Imo, all humans have a bias or axiom.

Tinker Grey · Nov 28, 2009

I apologize for thinking you were trying to start a debate. It seemed like a classic setup. Again, sorry.

Thekla · Nov 28, 2009

Tinker Grey said:
I apologize for thinking you were trying to start a debate. It seemed like a classic setup. Again, sorry.

Thanks

No offense taken ...

Criada · Nov 29, 2009

I don't know whether what I am experiencing now is 'faith that God isn't there'... it is certainly a lack of faith that he is. But... I still want him to be, I still pray, pointless though it seems - so I don't think I would say I have faith he isn't... just finding it impossible to believe he is.
I know that doesn't make a lot of sense....

Jo1 · Nov 29, 2009

Criada said:
I don't know whether what I am experiencing now is 'faith that God isn't there'... it is certainly a lack of faith that he is. But... I still want him to be, I still pray, pointless though it seems - so I don't think I would say I have faith he isn't... just finding it impossible to believe he is.
I know that doesn't make a lot of sense....

(((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))))) It will be ok sis.*love u praying for u always. love Joxxx

Thekla · Nov 29, 2009

Criada said:
I don't know whether what I am experiencing now is 'faith that God isn't there'... it is certainly a lack of faith that he is. But... I still want him to be, I still pray, pointless though it seems - so I don't think I would say I have faith he isn't... just finding it impossible to believe he is.
I know that doesn't make a lot of sense....

Thank-you, Criada; it is kind of you to engage in conversation during a difficult time !

I notice you use the terms "faith and believe", and so for me this is somewhat confusing. These are (iirc) both translated from the word "pistis/pisteuw" which really means "trust". Trust may manifest in the human as an intellectual understanding, or as action/s, but these are just expressions of "pistis".

So perhaps this is my confusion: do you trust that God is there, or do you trust that God is not there, or is it a matter of back and forth ? If I understand, it seems to be the last - back and forth.

Perhaps does it seem that it is yourself and your perception/understanding (belief) that you do not trust ? That you desire to trust that God is there, but you do not trust your understanding that He is there to be accurate ?

b&wpac4 · Nov 29, 2009

Thekla said:
I notice you use the terms "faith and believe", and so for me this is somewhat confusing. These are (iirc) both translated from the word "pistis/pisteuw" which really means "trust". Trust may manifest in the human as an intellectual understanding, or as action/s, but these are just expressions of "pistis".

To add to this point, I'd like to give a brief quote from Rabbi Heschel from his book "God In Search Of Man":

There is no word in Biblical Hebrew for doubt; there are many expressions of wonder. Just as in dealing with judgments our starting point is doubt, wonder is the Biblical starting point in facing reality. The Biblical man's sense for the mind-surpassing grandeur of reality prevented the power of doubt from setting up its own independent dynasty. Doubt is an act in which the mind confronts the universe. Radical skepticism is the outgrowth of subtle conceit and self-reliance. Yet there is no conceit in the prophets and no self-reliance in the Psalmist.

Thekla · Nov 29, 2009

b&wpac4 said:
To add to this point, I'd like to give a brief quote from Rabbi Heschel from his book "God In Search Of Man":

There is no word in Biblical Hebrew for doubt; there are many expressions of wonder. Just as in dealing with judgments our starting point is doubt, wonder is the Biblical starting point in facing reality. The Biblical man's sense for the mind-surpassing grandeur of reality prevented the power of doubt from setting up tis own independent dynasty. Doubt is an act in which the mind confronts the universe. Radical skepticism is the outgrowth of subtle conceit and self-reliance. Yet there is no conceit in the prophets and no self-reliance in the Psalmist.

Thank-you !

this seems related to what Fr. Alexander Schmeman says, echoing centuries of elders and Saints, that only in worshiping God does mankind become truly human ...

gratefulgrace · Nov 29, 2009

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=3&v=4&t=KJV#comm/3
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=3&v=4&t=KJV#dict/3
To add to this point, I'd like to give a brief quote from Rabbi Heschel from his book "God In Search Of Man":

There is no word in Biblical Hebrew for doubt; there are many expressions of wonder. Just as in dealing with judgments our starting point is doubt, wonder is the Biblical starting point in facing reality. The Biblical man's sense for the mind-surpassing grandeur of reality prevented the power of doubt from setting up its own independent dynasty. Doubt is an act in which the mind confronts the universe. Radical skepticism is the outgrowth of subtle conceit and self-reliance. Yet there is no conceit in the prophets and no self-reliance in the Psalmist.

__________________
This quote kind of reminded me of these scriptures. I think that sometimes we see our perceptions as the reality when in fact they are very unreliable when it comes to spiritual things. This why I love God's word so much because it is the truth not just for me but for everyone whether they perceive that or not. I think when we base our understanding of God's presence on whether or not we can feel anything we are on shakey ground. It is also intersting that the word for faith in the translation is actually the word trust. I didn't know that before but it makes sense. Peace gg

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=3&v=4&t=KJV#dict/4

Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Tinker Grey · Nov 29, 2009

Criada said:
I don't know whether what I am experiencing now is 'faith that God isn't there'... it is certainly a lack of faith that he is. But... I still want him to be, I still pray, pointless though it seems - so I don't think I would say I have faith he isn't... just finding it impossible to believe he is.
I know that doesn't make a lot of sense....

Makes complete sense to me.

Criada · Nov 29, 2009

To be honest, I am finding it difficult to get my head round the theological issues here... I don't know what the practical difference between faith, belief and trust at the moment. I just know that I no longer have any of the three.

Thekla · Nov 29, 2009

Criada said:
To be honest, I am finding it difficult to get my head round the theological issues here... I don't know what the practical difference between faith, belief and trust at the moment. I just know that I no longer have any of the three.

So, if you do not trust that God is there, do you trust/believe that He is not there ? In this do you trust that He does not exist ?

BTW, I do not think that trust is a theological issue; it is a disposition. We all trust in certain things, and these become axiomatic. If we did not trust that the floor is solid, we would not walk on it. We may not re-think our trust in the solidity of some forms of matter, but we do act on this axiom or trust.

Criada · Nov 29, 2009

I just don't know! I am confused and lost... I don't trust that he's there... but I'm not certain that he isn't... sorry, I'm not making sense, my mind isn't working well, probably due to lack of sleep.

Thekla · Nov 29, 2009

Criada said:
I just don't know! I am confused and lost... I don't trust that he's there... but I'm not certain that he isn't... sorry, I'm not making sense, my mind isn't working well, probably due to lack of sleep.

You don't need to answer if this is too much of a burden; or if you do answer, you do not need to do so immediately ...

but if its ok to ask --

is it that He exists but you do not trust in His presence interacting with you - to sort out if the problem is with the actual existence of God or of His interaction in your life ...

b.hopeful · Nov 29, 2009

Criada...I don't know you very well but I've followed this thread and I have a question.

In the past, did you believe you felt the presence of God? Today, do you trust that it was real at that time or are you questioning what it was that you felt then?

Zebra1552 · Nov 29, 2009

Criada said:
To be honest, I am finding it difficult to get my head round the theological issues here... I don't know what the practical difference between faith, belief and trust at the moment. I just know that I no longer have any of the three.

I was always taught that belief is head knowledge, faith and trust are putting that knowledge into action.

Criada · Nov 29, 2009

Well, I have the head knowledge.. but I think you can 'know' without believing...
Yes, I have felt what I thought was God's presence in the past, and I have 'heard' from him and seen answered prayer... and yet, now, when I try to think of those things, there are so many ways my mind can explain it away.

Thekla, it is an inability to believe that he is there in any real sense, not just that he isn't with me, but, that he isn't present in any meaningful way. Part of me still believes there must be a creator, but not one who is involved or interested in his creation.

gratefulgrace · Nov 29, 2009

I am curious if this was a sudden revelation or a gradual disenfranchisement with Christianity?
Also do you have any other spiritual input besides what you get at the church your husband leads? You may need more than is being offered there and as a Pastors wife perhaps this presents problems. But would you consider trying other fellowships for a bit just to get a different perspective? It sometimes helps, I know I used to alway get a boost when I went with the teens in our church as a chaperone to their YC's as it stirred up in me what I felt when I first believed.
I am not sharing this to open up debate or anything but what you express sounds a lot like where I was at before I received the baptism in the HS. Perhaps you already know but there is scriptural background supporting a second experience with God for some. Here is the Reference FYI I know it was literally the true start of my walk with God in my mind although I was with God and learning and an up and down 'believer' for 10 years before that time. 13-23 yrs.

Act 19:1And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples

Act 19:2he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."

Act 19:3And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism."

Act 19:4Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."

Act 19:5When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Remember Jesus said He would baptise us with the Holy Spirit in Acts 1 (Blue Letter Bible: NKJV - New King James Version) and Acts 1 (Blue Letter Bible: NKJV - New King James Version)

Act 19:6And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

Act 19:7Now the men were about twelve in all.

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