Deceived

[CrusaderKing]

The Pope isn't better at interpreting Scripture than I am, or than you are.

To be fair, the guy did get a lot of theological training and they don't just let anyone become a bishop. You may not agree with him, but this statement is like saying a lawyer is no better than you are than interpreting the law despite all the years of training and years of practice. Whether you agree with the interpretation or not is irrelevant, but that statement is a little harsh. I'm not really trying to start a theological debate here over who has the correct interpretation, but just a general defense of training and years of practice. I can admit that the Patriarch of Constantinople is more qualified and better to consult about theological matters than I am.

 

[Tamara224]

And how and why exactly do you think that?

Simple, because I'm 13 years older than you. So I've had at least 13 years longer than you at theological study. Plus 13 years more of life experience than you.

I know that at your age it's easy to discount experience and to believe that we know more than those who are older than us. I know because I've been where you are. But when you're my age, I'm sure you'll meet a 19 year old who thinks she's smarter than you and has the audacity to proclaim that she's more studied/educated than you, and you'll shake your head and wonder if you ever acted like that.

(If, indeed you were referring to me and not the OP, here.) To claim your theological greatness over me based on a couple of posts you've seen of mine over the internet just shows that you're trying to prove your "superiority" over me (why, I have no idea).

Sunset, please chill out a little. You're the one that began by accusing me of not having studied and having my theology messed up. Do you actually expect that you can accuse me and then not have me state anything at all in my own defense?

The fact of the matter however, is that indeed you have no idea. If we had known each other well (and in real life) for the past 10 years, then you would have a right to say something like that. But otherwise, to accuse me of "feeding on milk," while you are high and superior and already eating of spiritual meat is the same attitude the Pharisees had.

I did not accuse you of feeding on milk. I said that I don't feed on milk. My defending myself against your accusations does not mean that I am accusing you of anything.

I'm not going to reply to any of the rest of your post because I'm unsure of what was addressed to me and what was addressed to the OP. But I would like to point out nonetheless, that this was a subject that I have studied myself. It wasn't taught to me. I was not raised believing a woman needed to submit to her husband. But after my own studying, reading of many books, listening to many Bible scholars on this subject and believing it is indeed God's way and plan for wives, this is the conclusion I have come to. Do I need to learn more? Of course. I would be a fool to say I know it all. But this was not something that was "fed" to me. And it was certainly not something I've been "brainwashed" into believing, nor has it ever been something I felt the need to (as you say) twist Scripture into fitting around my own agenda. (Why this issue would be on someone's agenda, I have no idea.)

I'm sorry for the confusion I caused by getting my addressees mixed up in that last post. Since you replied to a post of mine that was addressed to LoveJC, I got all confuddled.

I don't think you've been brainwashed.

But if you honestly have no idea why some people (think male people) might have a good motive to twist Scripture in such a way as to subjugate women, then I must wonder about how thoroughly you've really studied and thought on this issue.

I just think there is a lot of wisdom in the way God set up Himself, Christ, Church, man, wife, family (government, elders, etc). It's all a system, otherwise there'd be chaos (and there is in most marriages, today). This "system" was established in the very beginning of time and reinforced thousands of years later after the New Covenant. And while you think my interpretation is screwed up and unfounded, I think that your interpretation is screwed up and unfounded, and I suppose that's just the way it is. Based on what I've studied, what I've heard from many intelligent Bible scholars, etc.

I don't think your interpretation is "unfounded", Sunset. I recognize the foundations of your interpretation.

I think your interpretation is wrong. But I can see how a reasonable person could reach the conclusions that you've reached.

The truth is that you and I have differing premises. Where you believe that God set up a "system", I believe there is freedom from "systems" in Christ. I believe that reliance on "systems" is pretty much legalism. Rules and roles and hierarchy are things that I believe are antithetical to being led by the Spirit and the freedom we have in Christ. And that is a much bigger topic than this thread can encompass.

I find your conclusion of these Scripture as being "sexist misinterpretations" unfounded and thus, stupid. I was not meaning to insult you, but merely perhaps question your lack of open-mindedness on this issue.

Don't be hypocritical. Until you show me that you are open to listening to my side instead of calling it "stupid" and "unfounded", you cannot possibly be in a position to judge me as closed minded. You expect me to be what you are not.

I was open-minded delving into this subject many years ago, myself.

I didn't believe one way or the other, and being 15, I didn't even understand what a wife being in subject to her husband really meant, or why it was at all important.

Four years is not "many years", dear.

Believe it or not, when I was your age I probably would have been saying pretty much exactly what you are saying. And I have no idea if you will ever change your position on this. But I know that it wasn't study as much as life experience that taught me to see things differently.

But there is no reason to think that your studying is more superior than mine, or more founded then mine, when in fact, I (and many Bible scholars) disagree with you.

Like I said, I don't think your position is unfounded. I think it's wrong. There is a difference.

And I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree and simply leave it at that. I do apologize if I have offended you.

You did not offend me, but I accept your apology. I too am sorry if anything I've said has offended you.

I have a superiority-complex myself (surprised? ) and get hot when feeling belittled, not because I'm insecure in myself or in my beliefs, because I can plainly tell you I am not (and I am confident in my own self-examination, because I am always examining why I act certain ways). But because I have a strong belief that nobody is better than anybody else. The Pope isn't better at interpreting Scripture than I am, or than you are. The President is not better or more important than me, or you. So when I get a feeling that someone is trying to act superior to me, I get defensive. (This is why a husband who is trying to "rule over" me in an unbiblical manner just would never work, so no need to worry about that. ) There's no justifying my actions, so I do apologize. It's something I still need to work on.

Ok. I do think some people are better at interpreting Scripture than others, though. There are gifts/talents given by God for understanding and teaching. Maturity and scholarship should not be discounted, either.

And the fact that someone else is confident in what they believe and speaks authoritatively about it does not mean the person is putting on airs.

You should examine your own posting style. The way you write often comes across as very authoritative and many people might think you are trying to act superior. I know that you are not, that you are simply sure of what you believe. But sometimes the things that offend us when others do it are precisely the things we do ourselves.

The thing most likely to offend our pride is someone else's pride. (I know from experience).

 

[LoveJC9]

< staff edit > < staff edit > < staff edit >.

No one is unqualified to understand scripture, when you are saved God speaks to you through his word. I know people who have been saved 20+ years who aren't as knowledgeable in the Word as people who have only been saved a short time. So, if God chooses to reveal the Word to you he can. It has nothing to do with how long you have been saved or how much theological training you have had.

 

[LoveJC9]

Hear me on this, fear is not from God! If you are afraid to question and examine what your "pastor" is teaching you, then you need to ask yourself why. (Directed at the OP, here).

It means more than that. It means that God doesn't favor any one class of people over another. The contrast in that passage was between those under the Law and those not under the Law. Paul was declaring that all of us, men AND women, are sons and heirs of God. We are on equal spiritual footing. Men are not spiritually more able than women. Men are not less likely to be deceived.

Insulting me won't change the truth. (And the fact of the matter is that I'm much more advanced in theological study and understanding than you are. I am not a babe needing milk. I am not boasting, but it is the simple truth). I know Whom I believe and in Whom I place my trust and I am not afraid of your accusations. I'm not afraid of hellfire for being wrong, if I am wrong. Nor will your attacks and accusations bolster your position. On the contrary, such childish statements as these reveal the weakness in your position. You have no idea why you believe what you do. You are merely repeating what you've been told. You are not convinced in your heart of hearts that it is truth and you are therefore afraid of contradiction. I know the feeling. I've been there before.

I urge you to stop taking your "pastor's" word for it. You are the one who will ultimately be responsible for what you believe and what doctrines you cling to. You and you alone have the obligation to search the Scriptures yourself to see if what I say is true.

Have the courage to question!

I know it may not seem like it, because I vehemently oppose what I am convinced is false doctrine, but I really do care that you are being led astray.

There is no mediator between you and God but Christ alone. If anyone comes to you and tries to convince you that you need him or anyone else to be in between you and God, that person is WRONG.



ETA: Sorry, I lost track of who I was responding to. Some of that was directed more at JC than Sunset. Apologize for any confusion.

First of all I have insulted you in this thread, I am not sure where that came from.

Second I have done a lot of study on this and I believe that I am doing exactly what God has for me to do. I realize this isn't right for everyone out there, but for me it is. I wasn't asking for anyones advice with this thread, I was just bringing up a topic.

I would rather error on the side of being overboard at following scripture than miss it.

I realize I don't need anyone between me and God. I can go to God any time day or night, I don't need a pastor or a priest to do that for me, it is trash that people are taught that. I never claimed I needed someone to go to God for me.

What I am saying is that I like having someone I can bounce ideas off of. The bible does say there is safety in the multitude of counsel. I like that I can go to my pastors and tell them what is going on in my life and get their opinions.

 

[Melethiel]

Translations are all well and good, but to really understand Scripture, you MUST know the original languages, and actually KNOW them, not simply use a lexicon. My boyfriend is currently taking Koine, and I've sat in on some of his classes - it's really amazing how much is lost in translation, and how BAD some translations can be. So I will absolutely say that the Pope knows more about theology than I do - he knows all the original languages, and he has been studying it all his life, as opposed to my meager knowledge of Greek and the 5 years I've spent. Doesn't mean I have to agree with him, but I will certainly give what he has to say more weight than the random person from the home bible study down the street.

 

[Rhye]

Translations are all well and good, but to really understand Scripture, you MUST know the original languages, and actually KNOW them, not simply use a lexicon. My boyfriend is currently taking Koine, and I've sat in on some of his classes - it's really amazing how much is lost in translation, and how BAD some translations can be. So I will absolutely say that the Pope knows more about theology than I do - he knows all the original languages, and he has been studying it all his life, as opposed to my meager knowledge of Greek and the 5 years I've spent. Doesn't mean I have to agree with him, but I will certainly give what he has to say more weight than the random person from the home bible study down the street.

I agree!
People spend spend their whole lives trying to learn Aramaic and Greek so that they can understand scripture. When I was taking Taoism, I we had 5 different translations of the Chuang Tzu. Each of them said completely different things which completely threw off the meaning of the text. The only way I trusted the source that was close to the translations is because my professor knew how to speak the language and studied under many people who knew how to speak the language, therefore, knew that one text was the better translation. I am not saying what I know or what you know is any less or greater, but I know when someone who has put their life work into it, and I actually try to listen to them a little, cause I might learn something. I also know there are things in the Bible I don't completely understand, so I go to people who know more then I do, so that I can learn from them, but I don't come up with these that are not there. And when it seems like I am-they tell me to stop!

God can give the ability to a person to understand scripture without that person ever stepping foot into a seminary. I don't understand how you can contine to make God so small.

Sometimes, people who don't yell the loudest -are the ones who know more then anyone else and who love and are devoted to God then anyone else. Lets keep that in mind as well.

 

[ProAntiRevolution]

I guess this begs the question of, who actually IS "qualified" to provide an "accurate" interpretation to other people ?

The Church, which is why Jesus founded a Church. He didn't write any books. The Church without the bible is not lacking, the bible without the Church is just a collection of books.

 

[ProAntiRevolution]

God can give the ability to a person to understand scripture without that person ever stepping foot into a seminary. I don't understand how you can contine to make God so small.

God can do many things, or anything. That doesn't mean he does. Personally, I don't understand how a person believes God magically gives them understanding of ancient books, but withhold the ability from you to manage your own life. Just sayin'

 

[broken_one]

The Church, which is why Jesus founded a Church. He didn't write any books. The Church without the bible is not lacking, the bible without the Church is just a collection of books.

The Church without a text is a social club, and the Bible without a Church is still a sacred book. The Bible without faith is a collection of fantasy books, I agree.

 

[Sunset2009]

I wasn't claiming I know more theology than the Pope. (Although I will not beat around the bush in saying that I personally think I have better theology and more founded theology than he has, but hey.) I just meant that having certain positions does not make someone better than someone who does not have that position. Better, as a person. Perhaps better at certain things, yes, but as a person in general, absolutely not. That's all.

 

[ProAntiRevolution]

The Church without a text is a social club, and the Bible without a Church is still a sacred book. The Bible without faith is a collection of fantasy books, I agree.

The Church existed for four hundred plus years before anyone got it in their minds to put together a Canon and call it official.

 

[Paulie079]

The Church existed for four hundred plus years before anyone got it in their minds to put together a Canon and call it official.

But Scripture still existed even though it wasn't in Bible form. Even in Jesus' time, the rabbis were studying the Law of Moses.

 

[ProAntiRevolution]

I wasn't claiming I know more theology than the Pope. (Although I will not beat around the bush in saying that I personally think I have better theology and more founded theology than he has, but hey.) I just meant that having certain positions does not make someone better than someone who does not have that position. Better, as a person. Perhaps better at certain things, yes, but as a person in general, absolutely not. That's all.

Your theology was invented in the 19th century, right along with Mormonism and a lot of other bunk. It wasn't a stellar period for theology in the English speaking world. Just to avoid beating around the bush and all.

Having certain positions certain speaks to a person's qualifications: you = 19 year old girl, probably monolingual. Pope = A bishop with all of the learning and years of experience that go into becoming a bishop. Elected on top of that by the cardinals, whom are men of similar learning and experience.

 

[ProAntiRevolution]

But Scripture still existed even though it wasn't in Bible form. Even in Jesus' time, the rabbis were studying the Law of Moses.

You do realize the Jews didn't even have a Canon until Medieval period? The earliest Christians didn't even have the Gospels, yet to be written. St Paul's (and other's) epistles were the same. Various early Churches used different material altogether, and probably fewer than 2 percent of these people could even read anyway.
If you burned every copy of the Bible the Church would still be here. If the Church is gone, well you get the protestant world: everyone interpreting the same books differently and fracturing over and over again. Until finally you get to a point where it's so fractured all these groups just decide theology really doesn't matter, and as long as you can agree on a couple basic points it's all the same.

 

[Paulie079]

You do realize the Jews didn't even have a Canon until Medieval period? The earliest Christians didn't even have the Gospels, yet to be written. St Paul's (and other's) epistles were the same. Various early Churches used different material altogether, and probably fewer than 2 percent of these people could even read anyway.
If you burned every copy of the Bible the Church would still be here. If the Church is gone, well you get the protestant world: everyone interpreting the same books differently and fracturing over and over again. Until finally you get to a point where it's so fractured all these groups just decide theology really doesn't matter, and as long as you can agree on a couple basic points it's all the same.

Oh I know the Canon didn't exist until the Medieval period. But there were still Scripture upon which the Jews founded their faith. I could see the reality in there being a Church even without Scriputre. Its foundations would just be pretty shaky.

 

[tapi]

I think we all are very suspect to being deceived, regardless of gender. I believe that one of the gifts of the covenant of marriage is having someone there with you with whom to ponder on things and make decisions in hard situations.

 

[broken_one]

The Church existed for four hundred plus years before anyone got it in their minds to put together a Canon and call it official.

It wasn't about "official cannon", it was about sacred writing, a text. Like Paulie said, even in the First Century they had the O.T. and they had writings of stories, miracles, and sayings of Jesus, which eventually came together and became the Gospels by about 55-70 AD.

It wasn't like they went without for 400 years....almost immediately as Christ spoke His words or did His actions, they were recorded by sources (including the Quelle). It's really a "chicken or the egg" question though, to be fair.

 

[LoveJC9]

God can do many things, or anything. That doesn't mean he does. Personally, I don't understand how a person believes God magically gives them understanding of ancient books, but withhold the ability from you to manage your own life. Just sayin'

Who are you refering too?

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

Closing this for review and clean up​

 

[Hisbygrace]

MOD HAT ON
This thread has undergone a bit of a cleanup 59 posts were deleted and a few edited. If you find some of your posts are missing or have been edited it was due to the thread cleanup. The posts which were deleted or edited were flamey, off topic, brinking vulgarity rules or quotes of posts that did. Most of these posts could have been reported and received a staff action, but staff determined to clean the thread instead. Please keep this in mind and in the future abide by the CF Sitewide Rules . You should also read the following concerning the new moderation protocol: Announcing the new Warning and Infraction system effective immediately.
MOD HAT OFF​