Debunking Pre-Trib

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

Zeke,

Can you please address this?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7598049-6/#post58786742

 

[Biblewriter]

how's that hotrod?

Rev 14 says that they (the 144000) are the only ones redeemed from the earth.

of course, i reject a pre or mid trib or historic view.

No, it doesn't say they are the only ones redeemed from the earth. It says they are the only ones that can learn the song.

 

[zeke37]

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

 

[zeke37]

Luke...

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

the tribulation is not the wrath of God.
Jesus spent plently of time teaching that there are going to be folks that believe, but fail.

in these end times,
it's going to be about staying faithfull to Christ,
and deserved of being a virgin bride...

or being seduced by the false Christ,
worshiping him insetead,
thus becoming a harlot and not worthy to be wed to the Lord.

it's about who is a hypocrite and who is not.

 

[zeke37]

I think I found where your problem is. You believe God's wrath starts at Rev 16 as you have just stated.

the wrath of God begins on the last day of the tribulation, which would also be the beginning of the Millennium.
we can read of that wrath in various places in Revelation.
While Revelation has linear parts, it is not completely linear.

You totally dismiss the fact that God starts to pour out His wrath in Rev 6 at the beginning of the 7 year period of Tribulation.

no, I disagree with your timline.
the wrath is Coming in Rev6
the wrath is Come in Rev11
the wrath is detailed in Rev16 among other places.

And states it again in Rev 11 & 14.

see above.

Yet Scripture promises that the church will not take part in His wrath.

not all the church, but the faithfull servant won't.
5 of 10 virgins aren't worthy to be wed.
5 of 7 churches go apostate

it is important to read scripture as a whole, instead of just a verse here or there.

Sorry brother, but we do not fit in this category of those who receive God's wrath. Scripture is consistent teaching this.

"we" do if "we" break the first commandment....and take the mark of the beast!

most of the church today is hypoctritical...
the tribulation period, is to expose those hypocrites.
the Millennium, is to refine them.

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

You totally dismiss the fact that God starts to pour out His wrath in Rev 6 at the beginning of the 7 year period of Tribulation.

no, I disagree with your timline.
the wrath is Coming in Rev6
the wrath is Come in Rev11
the wrath is detailed in Rev16 among other places.

Maybe you are having trouble understanding verb tenses in the English Bible. Hopefully this will help so you will be able to properly interpret the Bible instead of twisting Scripture to say something that you want it to say instead of letting Scripture speak for itself.

Rev 6:12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold,[e] there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon[f] became like blood.
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
Rev 6:16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

The context is that the sixth seal was opened and the results of the calamity that occurred on the earth, these kings make a statement in the present tense. Meaning, at the time the Apostle John was watching this take place, the kings make this declaration in the present tense about the events that are taking place presently in their time. They declared that it was "the wrath of the Lamb".

Rev 6:17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

"has come" is literally, "is come." It is the Greek word ἔρχομαι er'-khom-ahee, middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses).

Rev 6:17 Cannot be interpreted as talking about a future tense event. The Greek grammar does not allow for it. In Rev 11:18, it is the same word "is come" ἔρχομαι er'-khom-ahee, middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses).

Thus, both Rev 6 & 11 must be interpreted as a present tense event and does not refer to events to take place in the future after Rev 16.

Look, I really want to help you understand proper Bible interpretation because it is apparent that you do not apply Hermeneutical principles to your interpretations, so I am going to make you an offer. If you send me your mailing address, I will give you a free copy of my book, "Conquering Bible Interpretation." You can see it here:
Amazon.com: Conquering Bible Interpretation (9781591601548): Dade Ronan: Books

Blessings,

 

[zeke37]

Maybe you are having trouble understanding verb tenses in the English Bible.

the bible was not written in english Brother.
But i like the KJV the best, in english.

Hopefully this will help so you will be able to properly interpret the Bible instead of twisting Scripture to say something that you want it to say instead of letting Scripture speak for itself.

I could, of course, say the same back to you, but I won't

as soon as you say things like this, you loose. it sure makes it hard to make a friend and teach folks truth.
This shows IMO that you have not attained the proper attitude to be a Christian Pastor, shown within the NT guidlines.

i know that i can prove post trib with scripure, and at the same time disprove pretrib.
the question becomes, will you honestly listen to and consider the presumed post trib proofs, pray about it, search the scriptures, and then make a decision?

ps. I was pre trib for a while

The context is that the sixth seal was opened and the results of the calamity that occurred on the earth, these kings make a statement in the present tense. Meaning, at the time the Apostle John was watching this take place, the kings make this declaration in the present tense about the events that are taking place presently in their time. They declared that it was "the wrath of the Lamb".
"has come" is literally, "is come." It is the Greek word ἔρχομαι er'-khom-ahee, middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses).

Yes, I agree.
But t is the very end of the trib, and the wrath of God is about to come upon them.
We can read of like details in the OT prophets account of the trib days.
What we disagree on, is that you believe that the first 6 seals all happen before the trib, and that the trib, shown in the trumpets, is the wrath of God.
while I believe that the tribulation is Satan's wrath, and that the wrath of God begins on the last day/ the Millennium

Rev 6:17 Cannot be interpreted as talking about a future tense event. The Greek grammar does not allow for it. In Rev 11:18, it is the same word "is come" ἔρχομαι er'-khom-ahee, middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses).

Thus, both Rev 6 & 11 must be interpreted as a present tense event and does not refer to events to take place in the future after Rev 16.

lol. Rev 16 is present tense too.
Rev6/11/16 all speak of the same time, from different prospectives.

it's coming now...
it's here now...
look what it's actually doing now...

Look, I really want to help you understand proper Bible interpretation because it is apparent that you do not apply Hermeneutical principles to your interpretations, so I am going to make you an offer. If you send me your mailing address, I will give you a free copy of my book, "Conquering Bible Interpretation." You can see it here:
Amazon.com: Conquering Bible Interpretation (9781591601548): Dade Ronan: Books

Blessings,

one step forward, three steps back

how about this pastor luke....answer me these three questions, yes or no.

do you think that 1Thes4's rapture is pre trib?
do you think you are raptured out of here at that 6th seal?
do you think you are raptured out of here at the 7th trump?

then i'll show ya one reason why I think pre trib is wrong.
and if you can legitimately dispute the reasoning, then i'll take you up on your offer,
and even read your book and consider it's position.

 

[Jig]

The catching-up of the church before the start of the tribulation period is explicit in Scripture.

It's not difficult to see that the rapture and the 2nd coming are two separate events. During the 2nd coming of Christ He will descend below the clouds and actually place His feet upon the Mount of Olives.

Zechariah 14:4 (also read Acts 1:11)
On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives...

During the rapture of the church Jesus will not descend below the clouds nor place his feet on the Mount of Olives. He meets us in the clouds.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

 

[B1inHim]

do you really think that the tribulation will begin without anyone knowing it?

It has already began and no one here is able to realize it, so in answer to your question. Yes it will begin without anyone knowing it.

There is more than enough evidence in today's world to co-sign the beginning of the last seven years of this dispensation.

It is not only the pseudo Christians that are blind to this, but they are joined by the learned theologians and teachers as well.

There will be absolutely NO TIME to run.

No time to repent.

No time to get your coat.

No time to do anything when the times of the gentiles comes to an end.
And that time is ripe.

Once the gentiles have been removed from the equation, then the final 3.5 years will begin.
The teachers of the Post Trib harpazo do not see us standing before the Throne of God in Revelation 7. They have devised a formula for the body of Christ to stand throughout the wrath of GOD being poured out as well as the wrath of Satan.

Mark this well.

When the time comes in this generation that the gentiles time comes to an end, there will be cataclysmic events taking place including but not limited to the sun being darkened and the moon turning blood red.
There will be no where to hide and it will happen faster than an eye can blink.
Not withstanding, the actual time it will take will be no more than 1 hour.

And in that one hour the magnificence and majesty of the land that has been crying out "peace and safety" will be destroyed beyond recovery and no one will escape. NO ONE.

Note that the call to the Children of Israel for them to "come out of her My people" has been made.

Pre-trib teaching? Too late.

Post-trib teaching? Violates the word where we are not appointed to Gods wrath. Plus it doesn't recognize us actually being before the Throne in Rev.7.
Are you a gentile? Then you have a a time limit for being here, set by God. That limit is almost met.

Multiple prophecies will be fulfilled.

Those who want to follow after the teachings of men's formulas will be part of the 5 virgins who are out trying to get what the five virgins who go to the wedding feast have.

The Spirit of God.

May all that we do, say and think honor Father God in heaven, 24/7.
In Jesus name,
So Be It


ערבות מדינה

 

[Jig]

It has already began and no one here is able to realize it, so in answer to your question. Yes it will begin without anyone knowing it.

Really? Why is there no peace in Israel then? Who is the Antichrist?

 

[B1inHim]

The catching-up of the church before the start of the tribulation period is explicit in Scripture.

It's not difficult to see that the rapture and the 2nd coming are two separate events. During the 2nd coming of Christ He will descend below the clouds and actually place His feet upon the Mount of Olives.

Zechariah 14:4 (also read Acts 1:11)
On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives...

During the rapture of the church Jesus will not descend below the clouds nor place his feet on the Mount of Olives. He meets us in the clouds.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

All but the EXPLICIT before the GT part, is absolutely correct.

Rev 14 shows three things happening. 144,000 doing what they are to do.

Lord Jesus thrusting a sickle for the harpazo.

And the the results of the last war here.

BUT, note that both of your teachings do not place any of us who are posting here, in the group in Rev. 7:9.

Somehow, y'all are forgetting that Lord Jesus tells us that immediately after the days that He is talking about, the sun will turn dark and the moon blood red.
AND THEN He will have His angels gather us up.

The sun gets dark and the moon blood red in Rev. 6.

Then directly after that the hope of our salvation is literally realized in actions in Rev.7.

Everything that happens after 7 is in and out of time, back and forth and the only ones who are there the whole time are the 144,000 and the ones who get saved during the last days where the Children of Israel are the focus of attention.

We MUST go through this part of the Great Tribulation in order to come out of it.
The really BAD part takes place when we, the gentiles have been removed from the equation.

Our democracy is a major part of the problem.

It holds back the NWO and it is not the standard that we will live by when we are with God.

The GT is happening now which means that the Pre-Tribulational teaching is incorrect.

ערבות מדינה

 

[zeke37]

The catching-up of the church before the start of the tribulation period is explicit in Scripture.

no it is fantasy only.

It's not difficult to see that the rapture and the 2nd coming are two separate events.

it is impossible for them to be seperate events.
the seizing to Christ(rapture) happens at His 2nd Coming, not years earlier.
BOTH happen when the dead are raised.
so, same time.

During the 2nd coming of Christ He will descend below the clouds and actually place His feet upon the Mount of Olives.

sure will.

Zechariah 14:4 (also read Acts 1:11)
On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives...

awsome.

During the rapture of the church Jesus will not descend below the clouds nor place his feet on the Mount of Olives. He meets us in the clouds.

the clouds, refers to the masses that He returns with, not atmospheric clouds, but rather the sleeping saints.
see Heb12 for further proof.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

caught up = seized. no up in the manuscripts here, at all.
together = together.
clouds = mass multitude of returning dead in Christ.
air = aer, which is a synonym for pneuma = spirit.

this is simply the same as the mystery change of 1Cor15 that Paul already taught about, not the atmosphere.

we are seized to Christ at is Coming, when He brings the dead in Christ back from heaven with Him, to earth again, for their resurrection.

it all happens here.


and remember pre tribbers, that according to 1Thes4, the dead in Christ rise on the last day, AND THEN the rapture occures.

and from the gospel of John, we know that the righteous rise on the last day.



so, simply, your rapture occures on the last day.
Not years before the last day.

 

[zeke37]

It has already began and no one here is able to realize it, so in answer to your question. Yes it will begin without anyone knowing it.

while I agree that folks will not even know when they are in it, except the elect of God, the end time trib has not yet begun.
we must first look for the rise of the political multiheaded beast of Rev13, and that has not happened yet.

There is more than enough evidence in today's world to co-sign the beginning of the last seven years of this dispensation.

na.

It is not only the pseudo Christians that are blind to this, but they are joined by the learned theologians and teachers as well.

lol.
is obama still the antiChrist IYO? LOL
Can he be, if he does not win the re-election?

There will be absolutely NO TIME to run.

No time to repent.

No time to get your coat.

No time to do anything when the times of the gentiles comes to an end.
And that time is ripe.

all the above is for when the Lord returns here with the dead and gathers the faithfull alive to their collective...which occures post trib

Once the gentiles have been removed from the equation, then the final 3.5 years will begin.

and yet God states that the time of the gentiles runs until His return.

The teachers of the Post Trib harpazo do not see us standing before the Throne of God in Revelation 7.

dont speak for me...and that does not prove a pre trib rapture anyway.

They have devised a formula for the body of Christ to stand throughout the wrath of GOD being poured out as well as the wrath of Satan.

the wrath of Satan is the tribulation. we are all here for it.
the wrath of God is after the tribulation is over, on the last day.
we are all here for that too.
Some are gathered to Christ for it, hence they will not be effected by it.
but the others, that are not faithfull, they will experience His wrath.

once one breaks the first commandment, and takes the mark of the beast, all bets are off.
and plently of Christians will do that during the trib.

Mark this well.

When the time comes in this generation that the gentiles time comes to an end, there will be cataclysmic events taking place including but not limited to the sun being darkened and the moon turning blood red.
There will be no where to hide and it will happen faster than an eye can blink.
Not withstanding, the actual time it will take will be no more than 1 hour.

And in that one hour the magnificence and majesty of the land that has been crying out "peace and safety" will be destroyed beyond recovery and no one will escape. NO ONE.

Note that the call to the Children of Israel for them to "come out of her My people" has been made.

na. that occures at Christ's Coming. see Rev18

Pre-trib teaching? Too late.

no pre trib

Post-trib teaching? Violates the word where we are not appointed to Gods wrath.

no it does not, because the trib is not God's wrath.

Plus it doesn't recognize us actually being before the Throne in Rev.7.

doesn't matter, because you don't know when that scene is, or where.
you only assume it is in heaven and before the last half of the trib.
and those folks came out of great tribulation, not avoided it.

Are you a gentile? Then you have a a time limit for being here, set by God. That limit is almost met.

i don't think i am gentile, but i am not sure.
I might be from the line of Israel that was scattered a long time ago and became other peoples and nations. God knows.

Multiple prophecies will be fulfilled.

Those who want to follow after the teachings of men's formulas will be part of the 5 virgins who are out trying to get what the five virgins who go to the wedding feast have.

The Spirit of God.

they will be searching for something alright, but i think it is truth, not Spirit.
all 10 are already called virgins, thus they believe and have the Holy Spirit.

ps. the searching is done during the trib.

 

[zeke37]

Really? Why is there no peace in Israel then? Who is the Antichrist?

there is no peace yet because Satan himslef is the antiChrist, and he is not here yet.... see Rev12

 

[zeke37]

All but the EXPLICIT before the GT part, is absolutely correct.

Rev 14 shows three things happening. 144,000 doing what they are to do.

Lord Jesus thrusting a sickle for the harpazo.

And the the results of the last war here.

BUT, note that both of your teachings do not place any of us who are posting here, in the group in Rev. 7:9.

we don't have to. But most all pre trib does indeed.
personally, i'm still working on it
i have it down to 2 possibilities, and neither are a pre trib or mid trib event.

it's either post trib, and showing the faithfull gathered to Christ here on earth...
or it's pre trib but showing the dead in Christ only, in heaven.

i more so think the latter because there are two parts to the firstfruits.
-those that have died before the trib begins, as the remnant in heaven
-and those alive at His Coming

so, IMO Rev7 is showing us the firstfruits, both those in heaven waiting to come back with Christ at His Coming,
and those they shall be gathered to, who are alive on earth at His Coming, and go through the trib.

Somehow, y'all are forgetting that Lord Jesus tells us that immediately after the days that He is talking about, the sun will turn dark and the moon blood red.
AND THEN He will have His angels gather us up.

no one forgets that.

The sun gets dark and the moon blood red in Rev. 6.

then we know what is being referenced.

think of it this way....Rev6 shows the entire trib, time wise.
so the events of the 6th seal, that are going to be sealed into the minds of the elect in the following chapter, are going to be detailed later in the book through the trumps and vials etc.

Then directly after that the hope of our salvation is literally realized in actions in Rev.7.

the hope is not a pre trib rapture.

Everything that happens after 7 is in and out of time, back and forth and the only ones who are there the whole time are the 144,000 and the ones who get saved during the last days where the Children of Israel are the focus of attention.

the 144000 are Christian descendants of ancient Israel.
Not unbelieving Jews.

We MUST go through this part of the Great Tribulation in order to come out of it.

we gotta go through all of it...the faithfull will not have a hair on their head hurt.
the unfaithfull will wind up with the hypocrites.

The really BAD part takes place when we, the gentiles have been removed from the equation.

na, no gentiles are removed from the equasion.
The time of the gentiles continues until Christ's 2nd Coming.

Our democracy is a major part of the problem.

It holds back the NWO and it is not the standard that we will live by when we are with God.

The GT is happening now which means that the Pre-Tribulational teaching is incorrect.

ערבות מדינה

well, pre trib is incorrect, but so is mid trib....because the rapture occures after the dead are raised....which we know from the gospel of John, occures on the last day.

we are not in the trib yet, because we will see the formation an implication of a world wide political beast...

that will usher in the first half of the trib.

when the political giant fails, and Satan's arrival saves the broken system, that will usher in the 2nd portion of the trib.

 

[zeke37]

so, pre tribbers and mid tribbers....

is Rev11's Coming of Christ pre, mid, or post trib?
is this at the same time as the "rapture" in 1The4?

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

[Jig]

there is no peace yet because Satan himslef is the antiChrist, and he is not here yet.... see Rev12

Good to know...I guess we are not in the tribulation period yet.

 

[B1inHim]

so the events of the 6th seal, that are going to be sealed into the minds of the elect in the following chapter, are going to be detailed later in the book through the trumps and vials etc.

I have often wondered about the scripture that says that the seals are "sealed into the minds of the elect"

Maybe you can take time to show us this one thing that you claim is happening.

Show us the exact verse or verses that tell us that the seals in Rev 6 are going to be sealed into the minds of the elect.


AND if you like,
That they are nothing more than information.

That they do not have literal events behind them that follows after they are opened.

I hope that this is not too many things to do.
No Really.

Thanks
ערבות מדינה

 

[zeke37]

I have often wondered about the scripture that says that the seals are "sealed into the minds of the elect"

Maybe you can take time to show us this one thing that you claim is happening.

Show us the exact verse or verses that tell us that the seals in Rev 6 are going to be sealed into the minds of the elect.

well, what are seals biblically?
i mean, what does the bible already say about what a seal is?
are they ever the actual events,
or are they written instructions with a security measure?
the latter of course.
seals or the scrolls that they are protecting are never actual events.

they are called seals. and they safeguard special information.
and in the next chapter, something is sealed into the minds of the elect.
they are able to understand the information that was unsealed by Christ.

same story is told in Ez9 aswell.

so, read Ez9 and Rev6 and Rev7

AND if you like,
That they are nothing more than information.

see above. what are seals BIBLICLLY?
What do they protect?
a seal protects information.

That they do not have literal events behind them that follows after they are opened.

ohhhh but they certainly do have literal events that follow after they are opened.
only after the elect have been "sealed" do the events of the tribulation take place.

hence they have to be opened to have those events take place.

I hope that this is not too many things to do.
No Really.

Thanks
ערבות מדינה

na, easy to do...

but all irrelevant to our discussion,
because i have already shown that the rapture occures after the righteous dead are raised on the last day.

how about U tackle that one!

 

[Hog Red]

we are not in the trib yet, because we will see the formation an implication of a world wide political beast...

that will usher in the first half of the trib.

when the political giant fails, and Satan's arrival saves the broken system, that will usher in the 2nd portion of the trib.

didn't you say earlier that we wouldn't know when the 7 years of the tribulation begins. you have contradicted yourself and asserted your level of omniscience above all mankind and all the angels.

or

what you are saying is there is no indication in the bible as to the start of the tribulation nor the middle. if it were, every born again believer would know exactly when Christ's second coming is, but wait a minute, no man knows the day right.