Debunking Pre-Trib

[Biblewriter]

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
​

you were saying? not only does this "explicitely" say ALL, but it also disproves pre trib.

The all in this scripture is all the righteous, not all flesh.

When the Lord steps foot on planet earth, all flesh will be changed and be able to last the entire Millennium.

The sword that comes from the Lord, is His Word.

the change of flesh is how a lion can lay with a lamb, or a child can play with a snake, or what ever other examples we have.

I don't think that is to be interpreted literally, for good reason. God is not going to re-instate the Law. We have Christ.
God hates animal sacrifices. He tells us what He wants instead. Your love and prayers.

Your interpretation says these scriptures cannot mean what they say. But they say it very explicitly, and at a length of numerous chapters.

12

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

I think you will agree that since NJ is a cube, measuring 375x375x375 miles, which gives us a total area of more than 52 million cubic miles, that there is going to be plently of space.

The New Jerusalem spoken of here seems to be a satellite, not on the earth at all. Otherwise, how could it be 1200 stadia high? But that is not the significant fact of this discussion, but rather that the time when the New Jrrusalem descends is after the thousand years, not before it.

it could if it were spiritual in nature, like when one becomes saved they become a spiritual child.

no it does not. Pre trib does tho.

have you had time to think on the rapture happening after the dead are raised on "the last day"

I am not going to answer statements that are purely argumentative.

Your "debunking" only works if your interpretations are correct. But without an assumption that these notions are correct, you have debunked nothing.

 

[Zippy the Wonderslug]

When was pre-trib first introduced into scriptural theology?

Thanks.

 

[Biblewriter]

When was pre-trib first introduced into scriptural theology?

Thanks.

Many claim that this doctrine was never taught before around the year 1800, but this is totally incorrect.

The earliest totally pre-trib article know to modern scholars was written long before the year 800, that is, well over a thousand years before the alleged earliest date for this doctrine. How long before 800 it was written is unknown, but on the basis of internal evidence various scholars have estimated its date from as early as 323 to as late as 627. There are six ancient copies of this document in three different languages. Some copies simply say it was written by Ephraem, some say it was written by Ephraem of Syria. But one copy says it was written by Isadore of Sevelle.

This document says, "“Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: ‘Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!’ For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.” (“On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World,” author unknown but called Pseudo-Ephraem, section 2.)

But there is another ancient document that places the rapture before the great tribulation (making it mid-trib in today's terms) was written shortly before the year 200. This document speaks of the evil of the nations, and then says, "And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.'For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption'" (Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter XXIX, section 2.)

 

[Zippy the Wonderslug]

So for this millennium with Christ here on Earth, I remember reading how blessed are those who get this wonderful opportunity.

Is this only for the people still alive at the time of His coming?

 

[Zippy the Wonderslug]

^ So everyone in Christ will be able to share this event together, including the once dead?

 

[Zippy the Wonderslug]

So those who have passed away already will miss this event?

My apologies for not understanding you correctly on this.

 

[Biblewriter]

So those who have passed away already will miss this event?

My apologies for not understanding you correctly on this.

Those who have passed away already, if they had a true faith in Christ, will be brought with the Lord Jesus when He comes to snatch away those that are currently trusting Him. All of these will take part in the millennium as co-rulers with Christ.

Those who have survived the tribulation period and have retained a trust in God, even if they did not know about Jesus as such, will be given a chance to believe Him at that time. Those who do will be blessed in this world as citizens in the millennium, not as co-rulers, like those who had trusted Christ before He came.

 

[zeke37]

The all in this scripture is all the righteous, not all flesh.

well, we just learnt in 1Cor15 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom...
and Christ is Coming here with the "sleeping" saints to set up that kingdom.

so, no flesh and blood. And also, no Jews living here as inheriters of the kingdom, while in flesh bodies.

at first, i thought as you, but not now. The chapter teaches this.

Your interpretation says these scriptures cannot mean what they say. But they say it very explicitly, and at a length of numerous chapters.

Brother, i know what they say at length. It's vision, meant so that we all from all time, can know what is being represented, but as you know, prophesy is not always, if ever, completely literal. I think they all point to Christ. Many things in the Law were an example of the fulfillment that is found in Christ. And that includes the animal sacrifices.

there will be no literal animal sacrifices in the Millennium. The Jews would not be able to succeed under the Law or animal sacrifices, more so with the Lord literally here.

The New Jerusalem spoken of here seems to be a satellite, not on the earth at all.

huh? It comes from heaven, to earth.

Otherwise, how could it be 1200 stadia high?

it's a real big cube.

But that is not the significant fact of this discussion, but rather that the time when the New Jrrusalem descends is after the thousand years, not before it.

ya, well, so far that is my opinion too, but i brought it up to show the amount of folks that will be here and inhabbit that area.
the cubic space makes it possible.

I am not going to answer statements that are purely argumentative.

ok. I usually have a point behind my responses. Usually.

Your "debunking" only works if your interpretations are correct. But without an assumption that these notions are correct, you have debunked nothing.

the last day is the last day, and that is when the dead are raised here again, and after that, the rapture.

 

[zeke37]

When was pre-trib first introduced into scriptural theology?
Thanks.

most likely in the early 1800's.
Macdonald and darby and a few others.

When Dante's Inferno came out, it started to gain in popularity.

The gathering of the church to Jesus in heaven occurs prior to the time of wrath

wrath begins to happen on the last day of the tribulation, after those already have the mark of the beast. See Rev16

when the devil and his angels are cast to the earth to have 42 months to cause chaos and death and deceive the ungodly.

the church is here in Rev11 against the beast, as the candlestick part of the two witnesses.
the church is here as the last verse in Rev12 shows.
"keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ"

It is impossible for the born of the Spirit church (or any part thereof) to be subjected to the devil.

there is a temptation coming. The potential bride shall be tempted to worship another. The faithfull in Christ can not be overcome by Satan, but the unfaithfull will be.

Revelation 12 makes it abundantly clear that the people the devil is allowed to go after is not the child (church) that is snatched to heaven or the woman who gives birth to the child (New Covenant confirmed Israel) but "the rest of the woman's offspring".

lol. so, unbelievers have the testimony of Jesus Christ? lol.

The rest of the woman's offspring are those who choose to believe after the church has been taken out of the earth.

fiction. The 144000 are sealed before the trib's 4 winds blow. See Rev7

Those who choose to believe, who are the rest of the woman's offspring, are not born of the Spirit but they will be imprisoned and die for their beliefs, as the scripture states,

no scripture, certainly not Rev20:4, states this at all, but by incredibly poor scholarship

and will be resurrected and rewarded after Christ destroys his enemies and binds the devil.

the ressurection of the righteous dead is at the rapture. You say it is pre trib, so what you just stated is an oxymoron.

They will be judged by the church and deemed worthy to obtain the same reward - resurrection and to reign with Christ for a millennium.[/quote]
no mass martyrs in the Millennium, as Rev 9 and Luke21 teach.
Rev20:4 speaks of the beheaded like John the Baptist and other early Christians.

the faithfull ones who go through the temptation hour, judge the unfaithfull ones who failed during it.
the whole church goes through the whole trib.

Who do you think the church is going to rule/reign over?

the unfaithfull believers. See Ez44 for more information.

Yes, there will be mortal humans during the millennium and the immortal church will serve as kings and priests over them.

na, at Christ's Coming, all flesh and blood is changed.

 

[Zippy the Wonderslug]

fiction. The 144000 are sealed before the trib's 4 winds blow. See Rev7

So you take this number as being literal?

That's not very many people in comparison to the entire world.

I think this comes to something like 1 in every 50,000+ people who will be sealed.

I know the road is very thin that leads towards Heaven, but those kind of odds is quite terrifying to me.

 

[Biblewriter]

well, we just learnt in 1Cor15 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom...
and Christ is Coming here with the "sleeping" saints to set up that kingdom.

so, no flesh and blood. And also, no Jews living here as inheriters of the kingdom, while in flesh bodies.

at first, i thought as you, but not now. The chapter teaches this.

Your error here is in assuming that the millennium is the kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is in heaven. The millennial kingdom is a thousand year reign on the earth before the eternal state begins.

Brother, i know what they say at length. It's vision, meant so that we all from all time, can know what is being represented, but as you know, prophesy is not always, if ever, completely literal.

I seriously disagree with you here. Every prophecy concerning the first coming of Christ was fulfilled literally in its last detail. And there is no excuse for assuming that the prophecies concerning his second coming will not be literally fulfilled in like manner. See, for instance, Isaiah 34:16, "Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them."

I think they all point to Christ. Many things in the Law were an example of the fulfillment that is found in Christ. And that includes the animal sacrifices.

there will be no literal animal sacrifices in the Millennium. The Jews would not be able to succeed under the Law or animal sacrifices, more so with the Lord literally here.

Then the last third of Ezekiel is not true.

huh? It comes from heaven, to earth.

I apologize for adding a pure supposition on my part here.

it's a real big cube.

ya, well, so far that is my opinion too, but i brought it up to show the amount of folks that will be here and inhabbit that area.
the cubic space makes it possible.


ok. I usually have a point behind my responses. Usually.

the last day is the last day, and that is when the dead are raised here again, and after that, the rapture.

 

[zeke37]

Your error here is in assuming that the millennium is the kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is in heaven. The millennial kingdom is a thousand year reign on the earth before the eternal state begins.

The Millennium is when He sets up His Kingdom, the Kingdom of God.
And He and His gathered, are here on earth for it.

I seriously disagree with you here. Every prophecy concerning the first coming of Christ was fulfilled literally in its last detail. And there is no excuse for assuming that the prophecies concerning his second coming will not be literally fulfilled in like manner. See, for instance, Isaiah 34:16, "Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them."

Well, I guess we disagree. There are many symbolic things prophesied about His 2nd coming and even His first. We can read of them in Rev for example. see chapter 4-5. While certainly abiding by Isaiah34:16, it is none the less filled with symbolic teaching's about Him.

Then the last third of Ezekiel is not true.

rather, much of it is symbolic, in the same way that the OT was for us Christians who see it's fulfillment in Christ.

Jesus isn't literally a lion or a lamb.
He won't have a literal sword in His mouth.
We won't literally eat flesh at the wedding.
there is no literal end time famine or literal end time flood.
etc.
etc.
etc.

Ezekiel has plenty of easily proven smbolic prophesy in it, ie. see chapter 9.

I apologize for adding a pure supposition on my part here.

let's face it, we all do it.

but remember what is at the base of what has become my pre trib objection in this thread.

the righteous dead are raised on the last day, and then the rapture happens.

 

[zeke37]

So you take this number as being literal?

That's not very many people in comparison to the entire world.

No, I don't take it literal, I take it symbolicly for what the numbers represent from biblical examples of said numbers.
iow, many more than 144000 literal.

I think this comes to something like 1 in every 50,000+ people who will be sealed.

again, irrelevant if not literal.

I know the road is very thin that leads towards Heaven, but those kind of odds is quite terrifying to me.

while it is IMO not literal, the bible sure has bigger numbers to draw upon, so not every one will make it, as i'm sure you know.

plus the 144000 are IMO direct descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel mentioned, of the bible.
Perhaps the gentile portion of faithfull, are not counted with these. Perhaps the 144000 are literal descendants (Israel), and the rest's (gentile) number is not known.

 

[Choose Wisely]

So you take this number as being literal?

That's not very many people in comparison to the entire world.

I think this comes to something like 1 in every 50,000+ people who will be sealed.

I know the road is very thin that leads towards Heaven, but those kind of odds is quite terrifying to me.

Yes, the number is literal. The 144,000 are the first fruits of the second harvest.....the main harvest. The Church including the dead in Christ are the 1st harvest. Learn the parable of the fig tree.

 

[Biblewriter]

The Millennium is when He sets up His Kingdom, the Kingdom of God.
And He and His gathered, are here on earth for it.

That is the central point of this discussion, and you have repeatedly stated it, but have not demonstrated it from the scriptures. You have indeed demonstrated that the scriptures say that there will be people here in the earth at that time. But you have not, and you cannot, demonstrate from the scriptures that these people are resurrected righteous individuals.

My point from the beginning has been that these people are the righteous Israelites who have survived the tribulation and at its end come to a true faith in Jesus as their Messiah, along with many from other nations who had not rebelled against God to the extent that He found it necessary to remove them from the earth at the beginning of the Millennium.

The Old Testament prophecies are full of details developing this theme. I have posted numerous threads here in the Eschatology and Dispensational sub-forums tracing the scriptures that explicitly say this in plain language. Theone where I developed it most completely was here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7324109-5/

There are so many details presented concerning what will happen when Messiah comes that it took 14 posts to go over them. (14 of the first 15 posts in this thread.)

Well, I guess we disagree. There are many symbolic things prophesied about His 2nd coming and even His first. We can read of them in Rev for example.

see chapter 4-5. While certainly abiding by Isaiah34:16, it is none the less filled with symbolic teaching's about Him.


rather, much of it is symbolic, in the same way that the OT was for us Christians who see it's fulfillment in Christ.

Jesus isn't literally a lion or a lamb.
He won't have a literal sword in His mouth.
We won't literally eat flesh at the wedding.
there is no literal end time famine or literal end time flood.
etc.
etc.
etc.

Ezekiel has plenty of easily proven smbolic prophesy in it, ie. see chapter 9.
let's face it, we all do it.

but remember what is at the base of what has become my pre trib objection in this thread.

the righteous dead are raised on the last day, and then the rapture happens.

You are confusing symbolic language, which was unquestionably used, with explicitly stated prophecy.

When symbolic language, such as in Ezekiel 9, is used, the scriptures never actually say these things will happen. They only say that the prophet saw such-and-such in a vision. All such visions are symbolic.

But when the scriptures explicitly say that such-and-such will happen, they mean exactly what they say.

Now the case in point is the last third of Ezekiel. If the scriptures never actually said these things would happen, there would be justification in assuming that the visions were only symbolic. But the scriptures explicitly say that these things will happen.

 

[zeke37]

That is the central point of this discussion, and you have repeatedly stated it, but have not demonstrated it from the scriptures. You have indeed demonstrated that the scriptures say that there will be people here in the earth at that time. But you have not, and you cannot, demonstrate from the scriptures that these people are resurrected righteous individuals.

Well friend, i think i can or have shown plenty of proof, especially when the plethora of scriptures is taken together.

scripture shows that those who reign in the Millennium, do so from earth. Rev5/Ez44.
scripture shows that Christ lands here, and gathers His to Him in Jerusalem. Zec14/Rev14.
scripture shows that the Word and living waters are here on earth, coming from Jerusalem. Isa2/Zec14.
scripture shows the roles of the faithfull and the unfaithfull here on earth during the Millennium. Ez44.
scripture shows that the child shall play with the snake or lion/wolf with a lamb etc. Isa11/65.
scripture shows, while very poorly translated into english, that there will not be any old men or babies. Isa65
scripture shows that the elect shall dwell in Israel. Isa65
scripture shows a great feast of flesh. Rev19
scripture even shows the transformation from flesh to the spritual body, which without being gathered by Christ, will be plenty painfull. Zec14
scripture shows that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. 1Cor15
scripture shows that we shall ALL be changed. 1Cor15

My point from the beginning has been that these people are the righteous Israelites who have survived the tribulation and at its end come to a true faith in Jesus as their Messiah, along with many from other nations who had not rebelled against God to the extent that He found it necessary to remove them from the earth at the beginning of the Millennium.

well, no one is removed. Not pre or post trib.
You cannot find scripture that even suggests it.
And I understand your classic interp. I completely reject it.
You see, either one is sealed before the 4 winds blow, or one is marked.
there is no converting during the trib.

The Old Testament prophecies are full of details developing this theme. I have posted numerous threads here in the Eschatology and Dispensational sub-forums tracing the scriptures that explicitly say this in plain language. Theone where I developed it most completely was here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7324109-5/

I'll check it out and comment,
but again, IMO you are way off base here, if you think this is just about the Jews coming to Christ during the tribulation or Millennium.
That is so far from what is going to happen, it isn't even humorous.
The tribulation period is about exposing the hypocrites within....
iow, it's the test to determine who is considered a virgin for Him, and who is considered a harlot.
the Millennium, is to refine the ones who are hypocrites but love the Lord.

There are so many details presented concerning what will happen when Messiah comes that it took 14 posts to go over them. (14 of the first 15 posts in this thread.)

Many of them as symbolic and not literal.

You are confusing symbolic language, which was unquestionably used, with explicitly stated prophecy.

actually, no i am not. I do not doubt that what is at the heart of the vision will happen, but not in the way the prophet visioned it. It was so he could understand, and he could tell others all about it, and through his writings, we could understand too.

all of us from then to now have to be able to have the ability to understand the representation.
And there is no way that they, way back then, could have understood the fulfillment that Christ brings to the table.

But we understand what that Old Covantent leads to....or at least we should.
It certainly will not be reinstated. That would defeat everything Christ did.
The blood ordinances were done away with once and for all at the Cross.
And the only way to God is now through Jesus....He is the Grace of God.

When symbolic language, such as in Ezekiel 9, is used, the scriptures never actually say these things will happen. They only say that the prophet saw such-and-such in a vision. All such visions are symbolic.

But when the scriptures explicitly say that such-and-such will happen, they mean exactly what they say.

Now the case in point is the last third of Ezekiel. If the scriptures never actually said these things would happen, there would be justification in assuming that the visions were only symbolic. But the scriptures explicitly say that these things will happen.

in Ez 9, for example, we read of the sealing of the elect, a second witness to Rev7.
it is surely not a literal prophesy, but prophesy none the less. God will seal His election.

but i understand what you are saying. I disagree, but i understand.


and don't forget about the righteous dead rising first, on the last day, before the rapture happens.

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

wrath begins to happen on the last day of the tribulation, after those already have the mark of the beast. See Rev16

I think I found where your problem is. You believe God's wrath starts at Rev 16 as you have just stated.


You totally dismiss the fact that God starts to pour out His wrath in Rev 6 at the beginning of the 7 year period of Tribulation.

Rev 6:16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
Rev 6:17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

And states it again in Rev 11 & 14.

Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Rev 14:10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Rev 14:19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Yet Scripture promises that the church will not take part in His wrath.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

1Th 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1Th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

Sorry brother, but we do not fit in this category of those who receive God's wrath. Scripture is consistent teaching this.

Nah 1:2 God is jealous, and the LORD avenges;
The LORD avenges and is furious.
The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries,
And He reserves wrath for His enemies

Zep 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold
Shall be able to deliver them
In the day of the LORD’s wrath;
But the whole land shall be devoured
By the fire of His jealousy,
For He will make speedy riddance
Of all those who dwell in the land.

Zec 7:12 Yes, they made their hearts like flint, refusing to hear the law and the words which the LORD of hosts had sent by His Spirit through the former prophets. Thus great wrath came from the LORD of hosts.

Luk 21:23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

Joh 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Rom 2:5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

Eph 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Col 3:6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,

 

[Hog Red]

Yes, the number is literal. The 144,000 are the first fruits of the second harvest.....the main harvest. The Church including the dead in Christ are the 1st harvest. Learn the parable of the fig tree.

You bet its literal, that's why we are given an exact number from each tribe of Isreal so there would be no doubt or question in anyone's mind as to who or how many there are. however, this number has nothing to do with all of those saved during the tribulation that do not take the mark.

 

[Choose Wisely]

You bet its literal, that's why we are given an exact number from each tribe of Isreal so there would be no doubt or question in anyone's mind as to who or how many there are. however, this number has nothing to do with all of those saved during the tribulation that do not take the mark.

rev 14

3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The 144,000 are the first fruits of the second harvest. They are redeemed from the earth guaranteeing an acceptable harvest.

 

[zeke37]

how's that hotrod?

Rev 14 says that they (the 144000) are the only ones redeemed from the earth.

of course, i reject a pre or mid trib or historic view.