Debunking Flat Earth

[Kylie]

Yes, but what does that mean. That answer to that covers a fairly broad range of biblical concepts. If you mean something like occupying the same physical space, or something of that sort, then you’d need some other set of criteria, some sort of metaphysical manual. The bible puts it into terms of physical and spiritual bodies and their interaction, so if we’re talking about the bible and what it says, those are the relevant criteria.

Like I said before, two statements of fact that contradict each other. And in this case, the two statements are:

1. Jesus is completely Human.
2. Jesus is completely divine.

If everything about Jesus is Human, then there's no space for any God in there, because the second that even a tiny bit of Jesus is God, then we can't claim that he's completely Human. Thus, the two statements contradict and they are logically impossible.

But if we say that God is not bound by logic, then the two statements could both be accurate, even if we poor mundane Humans can't understand how.

 

[Kylie]

Yup; but in order to formulate rules and impose them on himself, he must follow some logical reasoning process... so maybe a god (or God) is just another ill-defined and ambiguous term people have invented to cover their ignorance and lack of understanding

Yes, I'd agree with you there, but for the purposes of this, I'm granting the premise that God exists.

I don't think that that gaming analogy is sound - having unlimited ammo limit isn't a logical contradiction, it's a change of limits. As I said, I do agree that other forms of logic are possible and that one could conceive a god bound by or operating under a different logic, but I don't know enough about formal logic to know whether a logic where X = not X is constructuve; my gut says no. In quantum mechanics, a quantum system can be in a superposition of states, e.g. spin-up and spin-down, but that's not quite the same thing.

Okay, but my point was that the rules can be changed by someone who is not bound by the rules.

It's from the perspective of someone who has made those definitions, someone who assigned their meaning. If you change the meaning, then you're talking about something else. So, you might argue that a square can become a circle on a surface of infinite curvature, where the corner angles become 180 degrees and the sides are curved into a circle; and there may a surface where a circle can be said to become a square - but in such geometries the distorted shapes no longer fit their definitions, and they can no longer coexist in the same geometry.

Well, a triangle can be made with three internal corners of 90 degrees. Just draw it on a sphere. But by doing so we are no longer bound to a flat plane. Yet, to a creature that lives in a flat, two-dimensional world who has no concept of how a surface can curve like that, they would say that such a triangle is impossible.

 

[JacksBratt]

The difference in external pressure from sea level and low earth orbit compared to the interior tire pressure is only a fraction. Please do some research and stop embarrassing us.

That's just funny, because the car was not in "low earth orbit". It was out way past "low earth orbit" and in complete vacuum.

 

[A_Thinker]

Forget the fact you should've seen the mountain LEANING away from you and then becoming 90 degrees as you approached closer.

Unfortunately, ... such a statement as this takes you out of the realm of rationality ....

 

[A_Thinker]

The ISS is in the atomsphere with a fish eye lens. It's not in "$$$PACEEEEE". What the hell is it even doing up there? Wasting billions of dollars, that's what it's doing.

If it's not in space, ... then it isn't wasting billions of dollars. You have to choose one version of reality.

NASA's own tax payer funded engineers have given interviews on how they are still researching on getting past the van allen radiation belts.

NASA lost the technology and telemetry data to go to the moon, the national archiving act was passed in the 30's!!!!!!!

If it wasn't the government, I wouldn't believe it. As it is, living with a government which potentially changes every (4) years, ... I can believe it ...

 

[Tom 1]

Like I said before, two statements of fact that contradict each other. And in this case, the two statements are:

1. Jesus is completely Human.
2. Jesus is completely divine.

If everything about Jesus is Human, then there's no space for any God in there, because the second that even a tiny bit of Jesus is God, then we can't claim that he's completely Human. Thus, the two statements contradict and they are logically impossible.

But if we say that God is not bound by logic, then the two statements could both be accurate, even if we poor mundane Humans can't understand how.

Well, not really. That's a question again of definitions, and how you personally understand them. To start with your phrase, that isn't from the bible, it's something somebody said about some things in the bible. The bible makes a number of claims about Jesus, e.g that he is 'the word made flesh', and 'in very nature God' and so on. There are various ideas people have had about what that means. So, in that regard, you have 2 options. You can read what other people say about it, and pick a definition that suits you, or you can go through the various things said by or about Jesus in the bible and come up with your own definition.
Secondly is the question of how you interpret those phrases - from what you are saying you take it to mean it is some description of two things for each of which you have a certain definition which entails their being entirely incompatible in some sense. What people tend to mean when they say that sort of thing, as becomes clear from context, is that Jesus was fully human in that he walked around in a human body and was subject to the same basic physical things other people are subject to, but that in his 'nature' he was divine. This is something like the idea of a body/mind, body/soul division, although that idea itself is subject to different interpretations. So, taken as it usually is taken it would mean your conclusion would be something more akin to 'chocolate cannot be fully chocolate and fully delicious'.
Another question would be about the value of assigning arbitrary definitions to bits of third hand information. Ideas about God, Jesus, the bible from a Christian perspective are all in the bible, you can read about them, learn what they are etc. In that way you can develop an understanding of what they mean in relation to the relevant context.

 

[Strathos]

That's just funny, because the car was not in "low earth orbit". It was out way past "low earth orbit" and in complete vacuum.

No it wasn't. And not even intergalactic space is 'complete vacuum'. Please, do some research instead of relying on crank youtube videos.

 

[JacksBratt]

No it wasn't. And not even intergalactic space is 'complete vacuum'. Please, do some research instead of relying on crank youtube videos.

Basic physics... one click on google.... may not be a "complete" vacuum.. but tires would not survive...

Pressure In Outer Space - The Physics Factbook


The pressure in outer space is so low that many consider it as non-existent. It has a pressure of 1.322 × 10−11 Pa. Pressure may be detected from the molecule of air or water hitting you. Since there is very little air and hardly ever water hitting you in space, pressure is almost zero or negligible.

 

[46AND2]

Basic physics... one click on google.... may not be a "complete" vacuum.. but tires would not survive...

Pressure In Outer Space - The Physics Factbook


The pressure in outer space is so low that many consider it as non-existent. It has a pressure of 1.322 × 10−11 Pa. Pressure may be detected from the molecule of air or water hitting you. Since there is very little air and hardly ever water hitting you in space, pressure is almost zero or negligible.

If you filled your car tires 15psi over normal, would they explode? No? Then the tires won't explode in space, either. There's only a 15psi difference in pressure between earth and space.

In addition to that, the cold temperature in space would reduce the pressure inside the tires. So even filling up your tires with an extra 15psi would be more "dangerous" than Starman's tires in space.

 

[A_Thinker]

Basic physics... one click on google.... may not be a "complete" vacuum.. but tires would not survive...

Pressure In Outer Space - The Physics Factbook


The pressure in outer space is so low that many consider it as non-existent. It has a pressure of 1.322 × 10−11 Pa. Pressure may be detected from the molecule of air or water hitting you. Since there is very little air and hardly ever water hitting you in space, pressure is almost zero or negligible.

The tires are inflated ???

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Okay, but my point was that the rules can be changed by someone who is not bound by the rules.

It's easy to say, but I'm not sure that always makes sense, e.g. if the rules are fundamental; is it possible to change the rules if the rules are what govern change?

Well, a triangle can be made with three internal corners of 90 degrees. Just draw it on a sphere. But by doing so we are no longer bound to a flat plane. Yet, to a creature that lives in a flat, two-dimensional world who has no concept of how a surface can curve like that, they would say that such a triangle is impossible.

Sure - it is impossible in their 2D universe, they can never experience it - but even if we allow them to conceive it, it's still not a square, by definition.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Basic physics... one click on google.... may not be a "complete" vacuum.. but tires would not survive...

Pressure In Outer Space - The Physics Factbook


The pressure in outer space is so low that many consider it as non-existent. It has a pressure of 1.322 × 10−11 Pa. Pressure may be detected from the molecule of air or water hitting you. Since there is very little air and hardly ever water hitting you in space, pressure is almost zero or negligible.

You only need to consider the absolute pressure in the tyres compared to their maximum rated overpressure (under the relevant conditions).

 

[lasthero]

Basic physics... one click on google.... may not be a "complete" vacuum.. but tires would not survive...

Pressure In Outer Space - The Physics Factbook


The pressure in outer space is so low that many consider it as non-existent. It has a pressure of 1.322 × 10−11 Pa. Pressure may be detected from the molecule of air or water hitting you. Since there is very little air and hardly ever water hitting you in space, pressure is almost zero or negligible.

The thing I find funny about this is that, even if you were right about what the car SHOULD be doing - and it doesn't seem you are - it wouldn't actually matter.

If the car behaved the way you think it would, if it showed all the signs you think it should be showing, would you accept that it was actually in space, or would you just assume that they faked it, but had the forethought to do the things you expect? I strongly suspect it's the latter.

 

[Strathos]

The thing I find funny about this is that, even if you were right about what the car SHOULD be doing - and it doesn't seem you are - it wouldn't actually matter.

If the car behaved the way you think it would, if it showed all the signs you think it should be showing, would you accept that it was actually in space, or would you just assume that they faked it, but had the forethought to do the things you expect? I strongly suspect it's the latter.

It's also pretty funny that they believe that this omnipotent, 2.5 millennia old conspiracy that encompasses every nation on earth and can fool everyone somehow still isn't smart enough to account for what they consider to be obvious errors... the idea that their complaints actually aren't scientifically justified just never occurs to them.

 

[46AND2]

It's also pretty funny that they believe that this omnipotent, 2.5 millennia old conspiracy that encompasses every nation on earth and can fool everyone somehow still isn't smart enough to account for what they consider to be obvious errors... the idea that their complaints actually aren't scientifically justified just never occurs to them.

What I find funny is...where does a claim like that even come from? It clearly has no basis in physics whatsoever. Was it started by a troll poe who knows that no space hoax believer would bother to verify?

I mean, it isn't even intuitive, imo. One has to be rather imaginative to even come up with the claim.

 

[JacksBratt]

The thing I find funny about this is that, even if you were right about what the car SHOULD be doing - and it doesn't seem you are - it wouldn't actually matter.

If the car behaved the way you think it would, if it showed all the signs you think it should be showing, would you accept that it was actually in space, or would you just assume that they faked it, but had the forethought to do the things you expect? I strongly suspect it's the latter.

All speculation.
You cannot use what you believe someone will say as support for you being right in what you say.

 

[lasthero]

All speculation.
You cannot use what you believe someone will say as support for you being right in what you say.

I never said it was support. Just an observation.

 

[JacksBratt]

I never said it was support. Just an observation.

Still... speculative.

 

[JacksBratt]

You only need to consider the absolute pressure in the tyres compared to their maximum rated overpressure (under the relevant conditions).

I have looked into this and have found that you are correct and I was wrong. The tires would be able to withstand the pressure differential of space, in comparison to earth's atmosphere. Tires are designed in such a way that these pressure differences will not cause them to fail. The heat and cold, over time, would be another story all together.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Tires are designed in such a way that these pressure differences will not cause them to fail. The heat and cold, over time, would be another story all together.

Quite - although it's worth remembering that the tyres will not be under any rolling stress, friction, or wear & tear; and, in the absence of an atmosphere, there will be no convection or conduction of temperature due to surrounding gas, only radiative heating and cooling.

It was last spotted flashing regularly, so is probably spinning, in which case heating and cooling will be averaged out to to a reasonably 'comfortable' temperature (average temp in LEO is about 50 degrees C, so rather less than that), varying in cycles corresponding to its long orbital period (it's in an elliptical heliocentric orbit crossing the orbit of Mars). The tyres, plastic, and leather are thought likely to last a year or due before the solar radiation causes serious damage.