Debunking Calvinism with Scripture

[chestertonrules]

as expeted you fail to see what is obvious , Calvin no more needed to repent than Joshua following God's law , Calvin did nothing more than execute the law in Geneva .


Lastly, Calvin was the founder of the greatest of republics. The ‘pilgrims’ who left their country in the reign of James I., and, landing on the barren shores of New England, founded populous and mighty colonies, are his sons, his direct and legitimate sons; and that American nation which we have seen growing so rapidly boasts as its father the humble reformer on the shores of the Leman.
There are indeed, writers of eminence who charge this man of God with despotism; because he was the enemy of libertinage, he has been called the enemy of liberty. Nobody was more opposed than Calvin to that moral and social anarchy which threatened the sixteenth century, and which ruins every epoch unable to keep it under control. This bold struggle of Calvin’s is one of the greatest services he has done to liberty, which has no enemies more dangerous than immorality and disorder.
Should the question be asked, How ought infidelity to be arrested? we must confess that Calvin was not before his age, which was unanimous, in every communion, for the application of the severest punishments. If a man is in error as regards the knowledge of God, it is to God alone that he must render an account. When men — and they are sometimes the best of men — make themselves the avengers of God, the conscience is startled, and religion hides her face. It was not so three centuries back, and the most eminent minds always pay in one manner or another their tribute to human weakness. And yet, on a well-known occasion, when a wretched man, whose doctrines threatened society, stood before the civil tribunals of Geneva, there was but one voice in all Europe raised in favor of the prisoner; but one voice that prayed for some mitigation of Servetus’s punishment, and that voice was Calvin’s. fta4


http://www.apuritanatheart.com/daub-Book1.htm

Calvin didn't need to repent, he was predestined for heaven!!

Jacques Gruet sided with some of the old Genevan families, who resented the power and methods of the Consistory. He was implicated in an incident in which someone had placed a placard in one of the city's churches, reading:
Gross hypocrite, thou and thy companions will gain little by your pains. If you do not save yourselves by flight, nobody shall prevent your overthrow, and you will curse the hour when you left your monkery. Warning has been already given that the devil and his renegade priests were come hither to ruin every thing. But after people have suffered long they avenge themselves. Take care that you are not served like Mons. Verle of Fribourg [who was killed in a fight with the Protestants, while endeavoring to save himself by flight]. We will not have so many masters. Mark well what I say. Gruet's views on religion were well known in Geneva, and he wrote verses about Calvin and the French immigrants that were "more malignant than poetic" (Audin). As Gruet had been heard threatening Calvin a few days earlier, he was arrested in connection with the anonymous placard and was tortured. He confessed to the placard and to writing various other heretical documents that were found in his house, and he was beheaded.[17

 

[Tacere]

You must reject these verses to be a Calvinist:

1 Peter 1
17Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

EACH MAN!!

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

THE WORLD!!

1 Timothy 2
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

ALL MEN!!

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

EVERY MAN!!

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you don not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

IF!!!

- James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by WORKS, and not by faith alone."

Whose works??

- John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Who refuses? God or Man?

Interesting. Did you just randomly pull verses out of the New Testament? Or are you just another person who doesn't really understand Calvinism? There seem to be a lot of them.

 

[Evergreen48]

And the Apostle most distinctly testifies, that "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned," (Rom. 5:12); that is, are involved in original sin, and polluted by its stain. Hence, even infants bringing their condemnation with them from their mother's womb, suffer not for another's, but for their own defect. For although they have not yet produced the fruits of their own unrighteousness, they have the seed implanted in them. Nay, their whole nature is, as it were, a seed-bed of sin, and therefore cannot but be odious and abominable to God. - Calvin's Institutes, Second book, section 8.

Arrggh!

And Jesus said that we must repent and return to the state such as that of little children if we would be able to enter the kingdom of heaven. What could He have been thinking! I guess He just didn't know that someone like Augustine or Calvin would come along after Him and change all that.

 

[Rick Otto]

Originally Posted by chestertonrules You must reject these verses to be a Calvinist:

Nah, just take the RC twist out of 'em.

1 Peter 1:17Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

Judging his work isn't about wether or not he's saved, it's about rewards in heaven, not about whether you get in, that judgement is based on the work of Jesus Christ & whether or not you were in Christ on the cross.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

THE WORLD!!

Yeah, the world, not just the Jews.
- John was saying salvation is no longer just for Jews, as had been preached:
Joh 4:22 - Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
But even being a Jew didn't mean you were saved because:
Ro 9:6 - Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: So just as salvation is of the Jews didn't mean every Jew would be saved, God loving the world didn't mean He loved eevryone in it.

1Timothy 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
ALL MEN!!

Same as above.

IF!!!

As if.
This doesn't nullify predestination, nor does it make our salvation works dependant. Rewards in heaven, but not salvation itself.
1Co 3:15 - If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by WORKS, and not by faith alone."
Whose works??

Calvin doesn't dispute that, unless of course by "justification" you mean "salvation" - a common RC confusion of terms.

- John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Who refuses? God or Man?

Again, no dispute, just your confusion. Since Adam's transgression God's wrath is upon each & every man.
The only ones who can believe are the elect predestined for regeneration. Only a born again human, regenerated unto spiritual life can believe, because only a living spirit can discern what to believe.
1Co 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Turn in your beads & scapula & breathe the liberating air of truth.

 

[chestertonrules]

Interesting. Did you just randomly pull verses out of the New Testament? Or are you just another person who doesn't really understand Calvinism? There seem to be a lot of them.

I'm willing to learn.

Does God judge each man's WORK?

Does God love the WORLD?

Will God render to EVERY MAN according to his works?

IF you don't forgive those who trespass against you, will God forgive you?

Is a man justified by WORKS or faith alone?

What if you don't REFUSE Jesus?

Does God desire ALL MEN to be saved?

 

[chestertonrules]

((Judging his work isn't about wether or not he's saved, it's about rewards in heaven))

Like how big your mansion is? How deep.

((Yeah, the world, not just the Jews.
- John was saying salvation is no longer just for Jews, as had been preached:
))

So God didn't really love the world, just the Calvinists?

((This doesn't nullify predestination, nor does it make our salvation works dependant. Rewards in heaven, but not salvation itself.
1Co 3:15 - If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. ))

So now you believe in purgatory. Good. That's progress!

((
James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by WORKS, and not by faith alone."
Whose works??
Calvin doesn't dispute that, unless of course by "justification" you mean "salvation" - a common RC confusion of terms.))

ie. A common Calvinist obfuscation.

How many unjustified souls reach heaven?

((Again, no dispute, just your confusion. Since Adam's transgression God's wrath is upon each & every man.
The only ones who can believe are the elect predestined for regeneration.))

How about: Those who believe are predestined, based on the foreknowledge of God?

1 Peter 1

who are chosen 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father

According to his random whim?? I don't think so!

God loves us.

He did not create us as mindless pawns for his glory.

What's the glory in that? He wants us to freely choose to follow his will.

Let's not disappoint him!

 

[Tacere]

I'm willing to learn.

Then you should have done that before creating this thread.

 

[chestertonrules]

Then you should have done that before creating this thread.

Clearly, you are not willing to learn.

Clearly, you are unable to counter the points I've made.

I get it.

 

[artybloke]

Chestertonrules - can I ask you what the point of provoking an argument with Calvinists was? I've no beef for the theology - in fact, I find it inhuman and cruel - but I don't see the point of two sets of people chucking Bible verses (usually ripped out of context) at each other as if either of you are actually going to listen to each other.

And that goes for all of you sad obsessives.

Can't you all think of something better to do with your time?

 

[Rick Otto]

Chestertonrules - can I ask you what the point of provoking an argument with Calvinists was? I've no beef for the theology - in fact, I find it inhuman and cruel - but I don't see the point of two sets of people chucking Bible verses (usually ripped out of context) at each other as if either of you are actually going to listen to each other.

And that goes for all of you sad obsessives.

Can't you all think of something better to do with your time?

This is as good as it gets for us, and it's better & cheaper than medication.
We have each other, artybloke. Where've you been? I enjoy your sense of humor.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Calvin didn't need to repent, he was predestined for heaven!!

He must have seen the Book of Life and God said his name would never be removed. LOL

This is what happens when men throw away any Apsotolic Tradition that is not in the Bible.

 

[chestertonrules]

Chestertonrules - can I ask you what the point of provoking an argument with Calvinists was? I've no beef for the theology - in fact, I find it inhuman and cruel - but I don't see the point of two sets of people chucking Bible verses (usually ripped out of context) at each other as if either of you are actually going to listen to each other.

And that goes for all of you sad obsessives.

Can't you all think of something better to do with your time?

Actually, I enjoy the debates.

I am forced to defend my faith, and in the process, perhaps I can enlighten someone else, or even myself!

I pick on Calvinists for three reasons(0ff the top of my head).


1) I think it is a potentially damaging doctrine which can lead to irrational complacency or despair. In addition, Calvinist claims to the contrary, I can't see it leading to sincere evangelization.

2) Most Calvinists are well read biblically and they seem to enjoy debate. I don't doubt that most Calvinists are good Christians, but I think their doctrine is severely flawed and I want to help them come to the truth.

3) Many prominent converts to Catholicism have been former Calvinists, ie. Scott Hahn, Karl Keating, Marcus Grodi, David Utsler, etc. and I think their strong scriptural understanding makes them prime targets for conversion.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=chestertonrules;Judging his work isn't about wether or not he's saved, it's about rewards in heaven))

Like how big your mansion is? How deep.

Exactly. Never mind your mansion, how big it is, or more importantly how close He puts it to your mother-in-law's,... have you heard about the rewarding of crowns?

((Yeah, the world, not just the Jews.
- John was saying salvation is no longer just for Jews, as had been preached:
))

So God didn't really love the world, just the Calvinists?

That's right, Virginia. God doesn't love everyone in the world. He tells us so more than once in scripture. It is disappointing, I know, but it is a wake-up call. And I'm so glad you understand that there were Calvinists before Calvin. Not many people understand that "Calvinist" is a derrogation of "truth believer".

((This doesn't nullify predestination, nor does it make our salvation works dependant. Rewards in heaven, but not salvation itself.
1Co 3:15 - If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. ))

So now you believe in purgatory. Good. That's progress!

((

If you want to call it that I won't mind because I'll know you're referring to that verse, but the usual picture of purgatory puts the sinner in it, not just his works.

James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by WORKS, and not by faith alone."
Whose works??
Calvin doesn't dispute that, unless of course by "justification" you mean "salvation" - a common RC confusion of terms.))

ie. A common Calvinist obfuscation.

C'mon chez, you can do better than that.

How many unjustified souls reach heaven?

Exactly as many as unsaved souls do.
Saved by faith, justified by works.

((Again, no dispute, just your confusion. Since Adam's transgression God's wrath is upon each & every man.
The only ones who can believe are the elect predestined for regeneration.))

How about: Those who believe are predestined, based on the foreknowledge of God?

1 Peter 1

who are chosen 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father

6 of one, half dozen of the other (same thing).
Predestined based on His knowing what He was creating before He created it. Foreknowledge isn't about peeping into an otherwise unknown future. It's about knowing that future because He created it by His own determinate council.

According to his random whim?? I don't think so!

Determinate council. Randomness is a phenomena observable only by a being who cannot percieve & make sense of infinite complexities. God is omniscient, so nothing is random in His sight.

God loves us.

You & me yeah, but try tellin' that to Esau.
The word "love" is sorta like a Rorsach Ink Blot. It can mean just about anything depending on who's sayin' it.

He did not create us as mindless pawns for his glory.

No, He predestined us for His glory. Predestination doesn't eliminate personal responsibility.
Don't reject that notion out-of-hand. Meditate on it. Think about this: One can be responsible for a sin without being guilty of that sin.

What's the glory in that? He wants us to freely choose to follow his will.

And so we do or don't, but "freedom" isn't unrestricted freedom which most people mean when they use that word. Think of the price paid for freedom, and you'll understand freedom isn't free.

Let's not disappoint him!

amen.
I gotta brew some decaf. BRB, chez my man.
The sun is shinin' bright on my freshly mowed lawn.
God is good, but I wish He didn't let the beavers rip up 90% of one of my hedgerows for building supplies. I couldn't believe it when I saw it. I thought it was vandalism at first, but then I saw the teeth marks & remembered they've stolen a 20ft. cherry tree out of our yard before.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I'm willing to learn.

Me too!

 

[chestertonrules]

(( I gotta brew some decaf. BRB, chez my man.
The sun is shinin' bright on my freshly mowed lawn.
God is good, but I wish He didn't let the beavers rip up 90% of one of my hedgerows for building supplies. I couldn't believe it when I saw it. I thought it was vandalism at first, but then I saw the teeth marks & remembered they've stolen a 20ft. cherry tree out of our yard before.)))

Why decaf? Caffeine is a highly effective antioxidant. Drink the good stuff!

Beavers? I thought the Platte River was in Nebraska or Kansas. Where do you live?

 

[Tacere]

Clearly, you are not willing to learn.

Clearly, you are unable to counter the points I've made.

I get it.

Just unwilling. I'm sick to death of people like you who always bring up the same arguments and never learn from it.

 

[Rick Otto]

I hit the caffiene/nicotene wall last week.
I would drink a 20oz cup in the mornin', another about 20m,(sometimes 2), and another about 9pm.
It was partly due to cold sheets (I turned the furnace off in the middle of March), but I don't think I slept for more than a few minutes a coupla nights in a row.

I live on that little south bend of the Platte about 15-20 miles east of where it joins the Missouri, on the south side of Louisville. If ya have Google earth, you can't see my house 'cause of trees, but the property is south of the 6th street bridge. You can see how the creek makes a kind of a square bend around my property before it turns to pass under the bridge & thru town on its way to the river. I don't own all that property, but it is considered undevelopable because the creek interrupts lot lines. The city wanted to straighten it out & eliminate my little 500sq.ft. shack, but the EPA found a unique species of tadpole living in that bend of the creek. Wierd, huh? The EPA is a big presence here because they tightly monitor the particulate emissions from the nearby cement factory.
I have no neighbors on three sides, and my driveway is an abandoned alley, a gravel road behind the real street, so my I enjoy a whole lot of space & privacy I don't have to pay for.
I bought the house from my father-in-law when he got p.o.'d at a property tax hike back in '95 & none of his sons wanted it.
And I thank God because my son was about 5 at the time and the neighborhood around 19th & Q in South Omaha had gone from graffiti to gunfire & even fire bombing.
I saw a wild turkey walk by my sliding glass porch door this morning. There's a flock of about 40 that wander around. Sometimes a dozen or more will parade thru the yard following the creek.
One year a fox made a den just across the creek & we got to watch her raise her pups.
I occaisionaly see a crane or two, & more rarely a heron.

I was shocked when I came to Omaha in '75, because seagulls, sandpipers, & even pelicans can be seen up & down the river. I spotted a flock of about 25 turkey buzzards from my canoe a couple years ago.

When I first came to the house to meet my father-in-law, sitting at his kitchen table I 'fell into a trance-like daze' I was so struck with how beautiful the property is. I said in my mind,"God, this would be a perfect place to have & raise a little boy." A few years later I found myself doin' just that.

 

[chestertonrules]

I hit the caffiene/nicotene wall last week.
I would drink a 20oz cup in the mornin', another about 20m,(sometimes 2), and another about 9pm.
It was partly due to cold sheets (I turned the furnace off in the middle of March), but I don't think I slept for more than a few minutes a coupla nights in a row.

I live on that little south bend of the Platte about 15-20 miles east of where it joins the Missouri, on the south side of Louisville. If ya have Google earth, you can't see my house 'cause of trees, but the property is south of the 6th street bridge. You can see how the creek makes a kind of a square bend around my property before it turns to pass under the bridge & thru town on its way to the river. I don't own all that property, but it is considered undevelopable because the creek interrupts lot lines. The city wanted to straighten it out & eliminate my little 500sq.ft. shack, but the EPA found a unique species of tadpole living in that bend of the creek. Wierd, huh? The EPA is a big presence here because they tightly monitor the particulate emissions from the nearby cement factory.
I have no neighbors on three sides, and my driveway is an abandoned alley, a gravel road behind the real street, so my I enjoy a whole lot of space & privacy I don't have to pay for.
I bought the house from my father-in-law when he got p.o.'d at a property tax hike back in '95 & none of his sons wanted it.
And I thank God because my son was about 5 at the time and the neighborhood around 19th & Q in South Omaha had gone from graffiti to gunfire & even fire bombing.
I saw a wild turkey walk by my sliding glass porch door this morning. There's a flock of about 40 that wander around. Sometimes a dozen or more will parade thru the yard following the creek.
One year a fox made a den just across the creek & we got to watch her raise her pups.
I occaisionaly see a crane or two, & more rarely a heron.

I was shocked when I came to Omaha in '75, because seagulls, sandpipers, & even pelicans can be seen up & down the river. I spotted a flock of about 25 turkey buzzards from my canoe a couple years ago.

When I first came to the house to meet my father-in-law, sitting at his kitchen table I 'fell into a trance-like daze' I was so struck with how beautiful the property is. I said in my mind,"God, this would be a perfect place to have & raise a little boy." A few years later I found myself doin' just that.

Good to hear.

That's a great story. I wish we had more space for our five kids, but we live a decent cul de sac here in Houston so I can't really complain.

I used to go to Omaha for work. I called on Omaha Steel and then I would drive up to Norfolk to go to Nucor Steel.

 

[Rick Otto]

What do you steel?
Do you smelt good?
Are you well tempered?
Don't try & tell me you're stainless!

 

[artybloke]

I am forced to defend my faith

What did Jesus do when Peter cut off the centurion's ear? Defend himself?

And why are you trying to convert people who are already Christians to your form of dogma?

I would say this same thing to Calvanists too: what on earth is the point of chucking Bible verses at other people to see if they'll stick? Is this edifying or merely a chance to impose your ego on someone else?