Debunking Calvinism with Scripture

[Rick Otto]

ReallY?

Or am I being patronized.

Not at all.
I appreciate the straight answer, and I appreciate your patience, and I especialy appreciate your friendship & sense of humor, tho it took us some head-buttin' before we got to bein' friends, what, a few months ago?

You, me, tadolamb, & lionroar all have a taste for insult humor that others with softer egos don't. I'm so glad we figured out to confine it to the rep button where the mods don't patrol. It is quicker & easier than a pm.
I like & respect you guys enough personaly that I don't realy care what you believe or think, except to say that I'm glad we don't agree because that makes our ability to be friends even more awesome.
This all just talk. I'm pretty sure you guys are as good or better than me moraly - the way you treat people, which is far more important than what you say, and makes whatever you say (within reason) entirely forgiveable.
Love covers a multitude of sins.
We are mostly all here because we are passionate about God.
It used to make me heartsick to see how many people would attend churches of any kind for any other reason.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I agree about the sense of humor thing.

We are mostly all here because we are passionate about God.

This is what I like about this site.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

But doesnt it say that error would enter the church?

Acts 20:27
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock,
over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers,
to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves
enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things,
to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years
I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

1 Timothy
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly,
that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,
giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats,
which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving
of them which believe and know the truth.





But of course He CAN, but is that what He chose to do?

It says "wolves" will enter. These wolves will speak lies or error. But the teachings are usually written down or held to by the Whole Church. It is these rules that the entire recognizes as the rules that we need to concern ourselves with. And it is these rules that will not be in error because the Church is the Foundation and Pillar of the Truth and the Paraclete is here for that Church.

 

[Rick Otto]

teachings are usually written down or held to by the Whole Church.

I can't see how that is possible.
Don't different stages of conversion & maturity (not to mention literacy) prevent that from being literaly true?

Even if the invisible church were entirely within the visible church, the entire visible church could not be in unity because:
1Co 11:19 - For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

 

[PassthePeace1]

I can't see how that is possible.
Don't different stages of conversion & maturity (not to mention literacy) prevent that from being literaly true?

Even if the invisible church were entirely within the visible church, the entire visible church could not be in unity because:
1Co 11:19 - For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

I'm not totally sure, I understand the point you are trying to make, and why you choose that scripture to support it. Because when I read it.....I see the Church's authority at work....Paul is admonishing them and correcting errors amoung them. This is one of the functions of the Church's authority, to correct errors and the divisions they cause.. Would you mind expanding on your thoughts?...thanks

17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. 18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions F35 among you; and I partly believe it. 19 For there must be also heresies F36 among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. 21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. 22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not F37? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

 

[WileyCoyote]

Hey, wasn't John Calvin the man who murdered Michael Servetus?

 

[cygnusx1]

Hey, wasn't John Calvin the man who murdered Michael Servetus?

no!

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Hey, wasn't John Calvin the man who murdered Michael Servetus?

He was the leader and it was other Calvins that murdered him because he was Catholic.

 

[Rick Otto]

They beat the Vatican to him.
Servetus was already on Rome's hit list.

 

[TraderJack]

Originally Posted by TraderJack
So goes the theory, but is not supported by the facts.

We have shown facts here in the past.

No, what is presented are Roman Catholic cliched talking points as dogmatic assertions.

What we have never seen is someone showing facts for their Protestant church going back more than 500 years.

Firstly, we are the True Catholics, it is Rome that is the usurper.

 

[TraderJack]

The Magesterium is described as error-free.
Isn't that what infallability means?

Waiting for redefinition #2,967, or definition du jour.

 

[TraderJack]

Originally Posted by Rick Otto
The Magesterium is described as error-free.
Isn't that what infallability means?

Not really Rick.

To keep it basic...

Infallibility means no errors.

ROFLMFO!

Now, error free and no errors are not the same.

I have heard it all now.
But I'll hang around because there is no doubt that there will be more doublethink like that forthcoming.

 

[TraderJack]

If you mean when theorizing and learning and just doing what men do then yes it is fallible because it is made of men.

The Pope is the same way.

When Infallible comes into the picture is when the Magesterium or Pope state a teaching to the whole Church as doctrine or dogma.

Jack, you better make the distinction between doctrine and dogma. In the Roman religion they are not synonymous.

The reason this can be infallible is because God will not allow error to enter His church.

Honorius taught the heresy of montheletism , and was condemned as a heretic by the Sixth Ecumenical Council
and by Leo II.


By the way, Honorius was teaching that heresy in his official capacity, as did Zephyrinus and Callixtus I who both taught Monarchian Modalism, giving Sabellius and Praxeas prominent positions in the church in Rome.

 

[WileyCoyote]

He was the leader and it was other Calvins that murdered him because he was Catholic.

So Michael Servetus was murdered by Calvinists.....because he was Catholic? Did John Calvin have anything at all to do with this murder?

 

[Rick Otto]

Originally Posted by Rick Otto
The Magesterium is described as error-free.
Isn't that what infallability means?



ROFLMFO!

Now, error free and no errors are not the same.

I have heard it all now.
But I'll hang around because there is no doubt that there will be more doublethink like that forthcoming.

I was wondering if anybody else noticed.
Now I'm trying to figure out how Servetus became Catholic. Maybe he's being confused with one of his brothers.

But I've never heard a RC respond, never mind admit, that Servetus was already on the Inquisition's execution list:
"On April 4, 1553 Servetus was arrested by the Roman Catholic authorities, and imprisoned in Vienne. He escaped from prison three days later. On June 17, he was convicted of heresy by the French inquisition, "thanks to the 17 letters sent by Jehan Calvin, preacher in Geneva"[15] and sentenced to be burned with his books. An effigy and his books were burned in his absence." from Wikipedia

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by JacktheCatholic
He was the leader and it was other Calvins that murdered him because he was Catholic.

Don't worry Jack, your safe on the other side of my monitor from me.

 

[Evergreen48]

Hey, wasn't John Calvin the man who murdered Michael Servetus?

On October 27, 1553 John Calvin, the founder of Calvinism, had Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake just outside of Geneva for his doctrinal heresies! Hence, the originator of the popular doctrine of "once saved, always saved" (known in certain circles as "the perseverance of the saints") violated the cry of the Reformation -- "Sola Scriptura" -- by murdering a doctrinal heretic without Scriptural justification. This event was something Calvin had considered long before Servetus was even captured, for Calvin wrote his friend, Farel, on February 13, 1546 (seven years prior to Servetus' arrest) and went on record as saying:
"If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."
Evidently, in that day Calvin's authority in Geneva, Switzerland had ultimate "weight." This is why some referred to Geneva as the "Rome of Protestantism" and to Calvin as the "Protestant 'Pope' of Geneva."
During Servetus' trial, Calvin wrote:
"I hope that the verdict will call for the death penalty."
All this reveals a side of John Calvin that is not well-known or very appealing, to say the least! Obviously, he had a prolonged, murderous hate in his heart and was willing to violate Scripture to put another to death and in a most cruel way. Although Calvin consented to Servetus' request to be beheaded, he acquiesced to the mode of execution employed. But why did Calvin have a death wish for Servetus?
"To rescue Servetus from his heresies, Calvin replied with the latest edition of his 'Institutes of the Christian Religion,' which Servetus promptly returned with insulting marginal comments. Despite Servetus's [sic] pleas, Calvin, who developed an intense dislike of Servetus during their correspondence, refused to return any of the incriminating material."
"Convicted of heresy by the Roman Catholic authorities, Servetus escaped the death penalty by a prison break. Heading for Italy, Servetus unaccountably stopped at Geneva, where he had been denounced by Calvin and the Reformers. He was seized the day after his arrival, condemned as a heretic when he refused to recant, and burned in 1553 with the apparent tacit approval of Calvin."
In the course of his flight from Vienne, Servetus stopped in Geneva and made the mistake of attending a sermon by Calvin. He was recognized and arrested after the service.
"Calvin had him [Servetus] arrested as a heretic. Convicted and burned to death."
From the time that Calvin had him arrested on August 14th until his condemnation, Servetus spent his remaining days:
" ... in an atrocious dungeon with no light or heat, little food, and no sanitary facilities."
Let it be noted that the Calvinists of Geneva put half-green wood around the feet of Servetus and a wreath strewn with sulfur on his head. It took over thirty minutes to render him lifeless in such a fire, while the people of Geneva stood around to watch him suffer and slowly die! Just before this happened, the record shows:
"Farel walked beside the condemned man, and kept up a constant barrage of words, in complete insensitivity to what Servetus might be feeling. All he had in mind was to extort from the prisoner an acknowledgement [sic] of his theological error -- a shocking example of the soulless cure of souls. After some minutes of this, Servetus ceased making any reply and prayed quietly to himself. When they arrived at the place of execution, Farel announced to the watching crowd: 'Here you see what power Satan possesses when he has a man in his power. This man is a scholar of distinction, and he perhaps believed he was acting rightly. But now Satan possesses him completely, as he might possess you, should you fall into his traps.'
When the executioner began his work, Servetus whispered with trembling voice: 'Oh God, Oh God!' The thwarted Farel snapped at him: 'Have you nothing else to say?' This time Servetus replied to him: 'What else might I do, but speak of God!' Thereupon he was lifted onto the pyre and chained to the stake. A wreath strewn with sulfur was placed on his head. When the [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]s were ignited, a piercing cry of horror broke from him. 'Mercy, mercy!' he cried. For more than half an hour the horrible agony continued, for the pyre had been made of half-green wood, which burned slowly. 'Jesus, Son of the eternal God, have mercy on me,' the tormented man cried from the midst of the flames ...."
Although we essentially have the same in the conversion of the repentant thief (Lk. 23:42,43 cf. Lk. 18:13) and the Scripture, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" (Acts 2:21; Rom. 10:13), Farel still reckoned Servetus an unsaved man at the end of his life:
"Farel noted that Servetus might have been saved by shifting the position of the adjective and confessing Christ as the Eternal Son rather than as the Son of the Eternal God."
"Calvin had thus murdered his enemy, and there is nothing to suggest that he ever repented his crime [sic]. The next year he published a defence [sic] in which further insults were heaped upon his former adversary in most vindictive and intemperate language."
As the Roman Catholics of 1415 burned John Hus at the stake over doctrine, John Calvin, likewise, had Michael Servetus burned at the stake. But was doctrine the only issue? Could there have been another reason, a political one?
"As an 'obstinate heretic' he had all his property confiscated without more ado. He was badly treated in prison. It is understandable, therefore, that Servetus was rude and insulting at his confrontation with Calvin. Unfortunately for him, at this time Calvin was fighting to maintain his weakening power in Geneva. Calvin's opponents used Servetus as a pretext for attacking the Geneva Reformer's theocratic government. It became a matter of prestige -- always the sore point for any dictatorial regime -- for Calvin to assert his power in this respect. He was forced to push the condemnation of Servetus with all the means at his command."
"Ironically enough, the execution of Servetus did not really bolster the strength of the Geneva Reformation. On the contrary, as Fritz Barth has indicated, it 'gravely compromised Calvinism and put into the hands of the Catholics, to whom Calvin wanted to demonstrate his Christian orthodoxy, the very best weapon for the persecution of the Huguenots, who were nothing but heretics in their eyes.' The procedure against Servetus served as a model of a Protestant heretic trial .... it differed in no respect from the methods of the medieval Inquisition .... The victorious Reformation, too, was unable to resist the temptations of power."
Is it possible for a man such as John Calvin to have been a "great theologian" and at the same time to act in this reprehensible way and afterwards show no remorse? Dear reader, do you have a heart that could, like John Calvin, burn another person at the stake?
Let us illustrate this another way. Suppose a man from your congregation with a reputation for being a spiritual leader captured your neighbor's dog, chained it to a stake, then used a small amount of green kindling to slowly burn the dog to death. What would you think of such a person, especially if he afterwards showed no remorse? Would you want him to interpret the Bible for you? . . . . . . .
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/ashes.htm#back7

 

[WileyCoyote]

On October 27, 1553 John Calvin, the founder of Calvinism, had Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake just outside of Geneva for his doctrinal heresies! Hence, the originator of the popular doctrine of "once saved, always saved" (known in certain circles as "the perseverance of the saints") violated the cry of the Reformation -- "Sola Scriptura" -- by murdering a doctrinal heretic without Scriptural justification. This event was something Calvin had considered long before Servetus was even captured, for Calvin wrote his friend, Farel, on February 13, 1546 (seven years prior to Servetus' arrest) and went on record as saying:
"If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."
Evidently, in that day Calvin's authority in Geneva, Switzerland had ultimate "weight." This is why some referred to Geneva as the "Rome of Protestantism" and to Calvin as the "Protestant 'Pope' of Geneva."
During Servetus' trial, Calvin wrote:
"I hope that the verdict will call for the death penalty."
All this reveals a side of John Calvin that is not well-known or very appealing, to say the least! Obviously, he had a prolonged, murderous hate in his heart and was willing to violate Scripture to put another to death and in a most cruel way. Although Calvin consented to Servetus' request to be beheaded, he acquiesced to the mode of execution employed. But why did Calvin have a death wish for Servetus?
"To rescue Servetus from his heresies, Calvin replied with the latest edition of his 'Institutes of the Christian Religion,' which Servetus promptly returned with insulting marginal comments. Despite Servetus's [sic] pleas, Calvin, who developed an intense dislike of Servetus during their correspondence, refused to return any of the incriminating material."
"Convicted of heresy by the Roman Catholic authorities, Servetus escaped the death penalty by a prison break. Heading for Italy, Servetus unaccountably stopped at Geneva, where he had been denounced by Calvin and the Reformers. He was seized the day after his arrival, condemned as a heretic when he refused to recant, and burned in 1553 with the apparent tacit approval of Calvin."
In the course of his flight from Vienne, Servetus stopped in Geneva and made the mistake of attending a sermon by Calvin. He was recognized and arrested after the service.
"Calvin had him [Servetus] arrested as a heretic. Convicted and burned to death."
From the time that Calvin had him arrested on August 14th until his condemnation, Servetus spent his remaining days:
" ... in an atrocious dungeon with no light or heat, little food, and no sanitary facilities."
Let it be noted that the Calvinists of Geneva put half-green wood around the feet of Servetus and a wreath strewn with sulfur on his head. It took over thirty minutes to render him lifeless in such a fire, while the people of Geneva stood around to watch him suffer and slowly die! Just before this happened, the record shows:
"Farel walked beside the condemned man, and kept up a constant barrage of words, in complete insensitivity to what Servetus might be feeling. All he had in mind was to extort from the prisoner an acknowledgement [sic] of his theological error -- a shocking example of the soulless cure of souls. After some minutes of this, Servetus ceased making any reply and prayed quietly to himself. When they arrived at the place of execution, Farel announced to the watching crowd: 'Here you see what power Satan possesses when he has a man in his power. This man is a scholar of distinction, and he perhaps believed he was acting rightly. But now Satan possesses him completely, as he might possess you, should you fall into his traps.'
When the executioner began his work, Servetus whispered with trembling voice: 'Oh God, Oh God!' The thwarted Farel snapped at him: 'Have you nothing else to say?' This time Servetus replied to him: 'What else might I do, but speak of God!' Thereupon he was lifted onto the pyre and chained to the stake. A wreath strewn with sulfur was placed on his head. When the [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]s were ignited, a piercing cry of horror broke from him. 'Mercy, mercy!' he cried. For more than half an hour the horrible agony continued, for the pyre had been made of half-green wood, which burned slowly. 'Jesus, Son of the eternal God, have mercy on me,' the tormented man cried from the midst of the flames ...."
Although we essentially have the same in the conversion of the repentant thief (Lk. 23:42,43 cf. Lk. 18:13) and the Scripture, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" (Acts 2:21; Rom. 10:13), Farel still reckoned Servetus an unsaved man at the end of his life:
"Farel noted that Servetus might have been saved by shifting the position of the adjective and confessing Christ as the Eternal Son rather than as the Son of the Eternal God."
"Calvin had thus murdered his enemy, and there is nothing to suggest that he ever repented his crime [sic]. The next year he published a defence [sic] in which further insults were heaped upon his former adversary in most vindictive and intemperate language."
As the Roman Catholics of 1415 burned John Hus at the stake over doctrine, John Calvin, likewise, had Michael Servetus burned at the stake. But was doctrine the only issue? Could there have been another reason, a political one?
"As an 'obstinate heretic' he had all his property confiscated without more ado. He was badly treated in prison. It is understandable, therefore, that Servetus was rude and insulting at his confrontation with Calvin. Unfortunately for him, at this time Calvin was fighting to maintain his weakening power in Geneva. Calvin's opponents used Servetus as a pretext for attacking the Geneva Reformer's theocratic government. It became a matter of prestige -- always the sore point for any dictatorial regime -- for Calvin to assert his power in this respect. He was forced to push the condemnation of Servetus with all the means at his command."
"Ironically enough, the execution of Servetus did not really bolster the strength of the Geneva Reformation. On the contrary, as Fritz Barth has indicated, it 'gravely compromised Calvinism and put into the hands of the Catholics, to whom Calvin wanted to demonstrate his Christian orthodoxy, the very best weapon for the persecution of the Huguenots, who were nothing but heretics in their eyes.' The procedure against Servetus served as a model of a Protestant heretic trial .... it differed in no respect from the methods of the medieval Inquisition .... The victorious Reformation, too, was unable to resist the temptations of power."
Is it possible for a man such as John Calvin to have been a "great theologian" and at the same time to act in this reprehensible way and afterwards show no remorse? Dear reader, do you have a heart that could, like John Calvin, burn another person at the stake?
Let us illustrate this another way. Suppose a man from your congregation with a reputation for being a spiritual leader captured your neighbor's dog, chained it to a stake, then used a small amount of green kindling to slowly burn the dog to death. What would you think of such a person, especially if he afterwards showed no remorse? Would you want him to interpret the Bible for you? . . . . . . .
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/ashes.htm#back7

Wow. You took the words right out of my mouth. Dan Corner is an awesome man of God.

 

[Rick Otto]

Dude, you don't have to post the entire quote just say you agree, especially in the immediately following post.

I agree with the Canons of Dordt, but I part ways with Calvin on ecclesiology, especialy in the area of church discipline.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Wow. You took the words right out of my mouth. Dan Corner is an awesome man of God.

Yeah I noticed. Got to read it 2 times in a row