Debating with an atheist; need advice.

[jeancommunicates]

JD: Let's give him some answers. Now you and I can talk all day long, but it is God's word that is powerful, not ours.
Genesis 6:1-5 KJV
"And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God (angels) saw the daughters of men that they were fair, and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh, yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years. There were GIANTS in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Now, you can read on if you wish, but the point is before the great flood of Noah where God destroyed the first world, human DNA was mixed with angelic DNA. These fallen angels had left God's way to follow after their own ways. When these angels had children with these human women and their children died their spirits were demonic and eternal and God forbid them His heaven. These are those spirits in high places that we wrestle with today as it is written in Ephesians 6:12 KJV "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

In Genesis 6:9 it tells us "Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations,,," which means Noah had no fallen angel DNA in his blood. So God let Noah come through the flood to continue the race of mankind, but the spiritual wickedness in children of the mixed human/angel bloodline carried on through these demonic spirits that live until God does away with them. Goliath was one of the giants and God told David to do away with him and the others. Nimrod of the Bible was a product of this demonic bloodline and Nimrod spawned the gods and goddesses that we hear about in Greek Mythology and in the Bible. The pagan idols were directly from Nimrod. Since the fallen angels mixed DNA with humans then that is where the Chemira came from half man/half animal or half bird/ half lion. They were on the walls of Babylon and we can see them this day. Before the Flood the people were wicked and mixing DNA of humans and animals.The humans did not have redeemable souls. The fallen angels were damned by God. Some chained in darkness until God calls them forth in the latter days of which will go into the Lake of Fire with Satan their leader.

God knows the bloodline. That is why the Israelites were told to kill the "ites" even their children and animals . Their souls could not be redeemed. Noah had to bring Adam's blood through the flood so Jesus' bloodline would be secured through the virgin Mary. Jesus had none of Joseph's blood in him and the bloodline that mixed with the human virgin woman was the blood of the Holy Spirit and God. No sex involved, but Christ's blood had to be shed on the Cross so He could win back eternal life for us that Adam, Eve and Satan lost in the Garden of Eden. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that who so ever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." God set the law, "without the shedding of blood their is no remission of sin. Hebrews 9:21-22 KJV "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood, and without shedding of blood is no remission. It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these." Verse 28, "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation." It took an unblemished lamb for the animal sacrifice for sin, but it took Christ's sinless blood for the FINAL sacrifice for your sin, my sin and your friend's sin. Whether your friend likes it or not, Almighty God will be the judge of all mankind. Every knee with bow to Christ Jesus and every tongue will confess that Jesus the Christ is Lord. God set all the laws of nature and all the laws for mankind. We will all be judged by that Holy Bible and we are commanded by God to know it. The patterns of things in the heavens means the temple that was purified with the blood of animals, but the heavenly things had to be purified with the blood of Jesus.
Christians are in spiritual warfare at this very moment and the heavenly angels are in warfare with Satan's fallen angels. Christians are in spiritual warfare with the evil spirits and demonic spirits which is the spiritual wickedness in high places controlled by Satan.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Your friend was never a Christian..take that to the bank

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

JD: Let's give him some answers. Now you and I can talk all day long, but it is God's word that is powerful, not ours.
Genesis 6:1-5 KJV
"And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God (angels) saw the daughters of men that they were fair, and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh, yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years. There were GIANTS in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Now, you can read on if you wish, but the point is before the great flood of Noah where God destroyed the first world, human DNA was mixed with angelic DNA. These fallen angels had left God's way to follow after their own ways. When these angels had children with these human women and their children died their spirits were demonic and eternal and God forbid them His heaven. These are those spirits in high places that we wrestle with today as it is written in Ephesians 6:12 KJV "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

In Genesis 6:9 it tells us "Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations,,," which means Noah had no fallen angel DNA in his blood. So God let Noah come through the flood to continue the race of mankind, but the spiritual wickedness in children of the mixed human/angel bloodline carried on through these demonic spirits that live until God does away with them. Goliath was one of the giants and God told David to do away with him and the others. Nimrod of the Bible was a product of this demonic bloodline and Nimrod spawned the gods and goddesses that we hear about in Greek Mythology and in the Bible. The pagan idols were directly from Nimrod. Since the fallen angels mixed DNA with humans then that is where the Chemira came from half man/half animal or half bird/ half lion. They were on the walls of Babylon and we can see them this day. Before the Flood the people were wicked and mixing DNA of humans and animals.The humans did not have redeemable souls. The fallen angels were damned by God. Some chained in darkness until God calls them forth in the latter days of which will go into the Lake of Fire with Satan their leader.

God knows the bloodline. That is why the Israelites were told to kill the "ites" even their children and animals . Their souls could not be redeemed. Noah had to bring Adam's blood through the flood so Jesus' bloodline would be secured through the virgin Mary. Jesus had none of Joseph's blood in him and the bloodline that mixed with the human virgin woman was the blood of the Holy Spirit and God. No sex involved, but Christ's blood had to be shed on the Cross so He could win back eternal life for us that Adam, Eve and Satan lost in the Garden of Eden. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that who so ever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." God set the law, "without the shedding of blood their is no remission of sin. Hebrews 9:21-22 KJV "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood, and without shedding of blood is no remission. It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these." Verse 28, "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation." It took an unblemished lamb for the animal sacrifice for sin, but it took Christ's sinless blood for the FINAL sacrifice for your sin, my sin and your friend's sin. Whether your friend likes it or not, Almighty God will be the judge of all mankind. Every knee with bow to Christ Jesus and every tongue will confess that Jesus the Christ is Lord. God set all the laws of nature and all the laws for mankind. We will all be judged by that Holy Bible and we are commanded by God to know it. The patterns of things in the heavens means the temple that was purified with the blood of animals, but the heavenly things had to be purified with the blood of Jesus.
Christians are in spiritual warfare at this very moment and the heavenly angels are in warfare with Satan's fallen angels. Christians are in spiritual warfare with the evil spirits and demonic spirits which is the spiritual wickedness in high places controlled by Satan.

Wow!!! That post was flat-out amazing.."...kinda like the Bible in a nutshell! You really do “communicate”, don’t you?You made my day....thank you and may God continue to bless you!

 

[Kenny'sID]

Cruelty and Violence and then decided that Christianity was no longer right for him.

So, he's saying, since God isn't everything he wants him to be, he doesn't exist, and it's time to move on and find another? Or none at all?

The God of the Bible is one to whom I'd much rather be on his good side for those very reasons. Being mad at him and moving on because I don't like or understand his ways, seems like a very bad idea.

It doen't sound like he ever took God seriously.

 

[cloudyday2]

When I believed in Christianity a few years ago, I wanted my atheist friends to believe too. My priest said the best method would be to live a Christian life to attract them to Christianity.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

When I believed in Christianity a few years ago, I wanted my atheist friends to believe too. My priest said the best method would be to live a Christian life to attract them to Christianity.

Your priest was very wise!

 

[Halbhh]

Recently me and a friend of mine, who came out as an atheist recently have been debating nonstop for the past month or so. I learned that he used to be a Christian himself, until he started reading the bible more mindfully. He was made aware of all the "bad things" that happened, such as God killing people, stoning children, etc. He came across this link: Cruelty and Violence and then decided that Christianity was no longer right for him. He also studied scientific concepts such as big bang, evolution, etc. and just trying to disprove the bible in any way he can. Overall I would consider him a "Strong atheist".

On the other hand, myself, I feel like I'd consider myself a "Weak christian". There are so many questions he asks me that I don't feel qualified enough to answer, and the ones that I do feel like I answer accurately and within reason, he just comes back with a counter-arguement. It just happens every time and I feel like there's nothing that comes to my mind, and there's no reason to continue discussing this. But I care about him so much, and I feel like he at least deserves the respect from me by answering any of his questions/concerns. He respects my beliefs, and I respect his. So overall the discussions are respectful and there's nothing to complain about there, but I tend to give relatively short responses because I just haven't studied the bible enough, nor have I paid much attention in church until recently. But deep inside my heart I know what I believe is truth, but it's difficult for me to express it.

One of the things we discussed was morality. I stated that I think God is the standard for morality, but then he states that if I think God is moral, then ultimately, somehow accept and believe in murder and all the "bad things", and that morality is subjective. Like, how do I even respond to that? It doesn't make sense to me and at that point there's nothing I can contribute to the discussion. I know that if I learn more from church/bible studies/asking you guys, then I can come to a sensible conclusion or response and then we could have more intellectual discussion with each other. I'm tired of one-sided discussions where I have nothing to contribute. I know I'm better than that.

Spend your time better by reading the book he is misrepresenting by not knowing full stories, but don't read poorly like an ideologue. Read well to learn the entire stories -- that is read full books completely. Some events have key pieces in more than one book also, so they are often not understandable to quick, shallow reading. For yourself start with what we all need the most, the gospel. I like Matthew or Luke first. After every five or six books, come back to the 4 gospels, and read another of them. I recommend the NIV for clarity.

Here's one site where you can click on a verse number to see commentary when needed at times at the bottom of the translations. But first read a full passage in a listening way, holistically.
Luke 1 NIV

 

[quatona]

Are you an Atheist? I ask because it looks at though you have no intention other than to question the OP's beliefs, when I think that is the opposite of what he asked for, hence off topic.

Must be something in your eye.

Are you trying to help or hinder here?

I´m definitely trying to help him. I think everyone is best off when defending their belief authentically and in a consistent manner.
E.g. if (!) it hasn´t been rationality that led someone to their beliefs and/or that their beliefs are founded in, it´s not a good idea to try to defend them in a rational way.
That´s why I think the first think he should do is ask himself: What do I believe and why do I believe this?

 

[quatona]

My favorite questions to ask an atheist is
"Why do you have to have groups and associations to promote atheism?
Why do you have to shove atheism down everybody's throat if there really is no God, why can't you just live your lives?
Answer: Because they can't, when they look around, they see God everywhere. Ps 19:1
So they have to shout louder and louder that God doesn't exist.

What results did you encounter when asking atheists this your favourite question (and answering on their behalf)?

 

[Dirk1540]

Recently me and a friend of mine, who came out as an atheist recently have been debating nonstop for the past month or so. I learned that he used to be a Christian himself, until he started reading the bible more mindfully. He was made aware of all the "bad things" that happened, such as God killing people, stoning children, etc. He came across this link: Cruelty and Violence and then decided that Christianity was no longer right for him. He also studied scientific concepts such as big bang, evolution, etc. and just trying to disprove the bible in any way he can. Overall I would consider him a "Strong atheist".

On the other hand, myself, I feel like I'd consider myself a "Weak christian". There are so many questions he asks me that I don't feel qualified enough to answer, and the ones that I do feel like I answer accurately and within reason, he just comes back with a counter-arguement. It just happens every time and I feel like there's nothing that comes to my mind, and there's no reason to continue discussing this. But I care about him so much, and I feel like he at least deserves the respect from me by answering any of his questions/concerns. He respects my beliefs, and I respect his. So overall the discussions are respectful and there's nothing to complain about there, but I tend to give relatively short responses because I just haven't studied the bible enough, nor have I paid much attention in church until recently. But deep inside my heart I know what I believe is truth, but it's difficult for me to express it.

One of the things we discussed was morality. I stated that I think God is the standard for morality, but then he states that if I think God is moral, then ultimately, somehow accept and believe in murder and all the "bad things", and that morality is subjective. Like, how do I even respond to that? It doesn't make sense to me and at that point there's nothing I can contribute to the discussion. I know that if I learn more from church/bible studies/asking you guys, then I can come to a sensible conclusion or response and then we could have more intellectual discussion with each other. I'm tired of one-sided discussions where I have nothing to contribute. I know I'm better than that.

This would be my top 2 pieces of strategic advice for you when trying to beat most atheists...

#1, you can't.
#2, you won't.

The transition for people always seems to come from within. Having a foundation of reasoning is absolutely important!! But it's importance is for YOU! Learn for yourself, if it happens to benefit someone else in the process, then that is awesome! If you had totally exhaustive knowledge on how to defend Christianity, and your friend had totally exhaustive knowledge on how to defend atheism, neither one of you would be able to pin the other into a logical corner without there being wiggle room for both of you. Your best bet is to know why you believe (which can definitely mean expanding your Biblical knowledge), and if someone calls you out on your reasoning, simply let it be known why you believe what you believe. If they don't like it, so be it.

Learn to get good at knowing the difference between genuine curiosity, and a person who just loves to argue...if you also enjoy the competition of arguing with the person who loves to argue than knock yourself out, argue all day if you like it...but if it annoys you do not feel obligated to chase people around. Do not feel like you are doing God a disservice by chasing their first 5 objections, but letting the next one go...trust me there's probably 5 more after that one too. Again, building your knowledge base is for YOU (it's hard to have strong faith if you feel intellectually silly).

Here's something that is true, yet I will be the 1st to admit it drives my logical side crazy, people who live like good Christians convert way more people to Christianity than people who have the best technical knowledge! Of course ALSO knowing your stuff would definitely be the best of both worlds.

One more thing, try to start distancing yourself from the mindset that the writers of the Old Testament had scientific lessons in mind. EVEN if a writer let his ignorant ANE cosmology shine through God had no interest in anything other than the people of that day grasping what the theological message was. You should check out a book 'Ancient Israelite Literature In It's Cultural Context' by John Walton.

 

[Cearbhall]

I learned that he used to be a Christian himself, until he started reading the bible more mindfully. He was made aware of all the "bad things" that happened, such as God killing people, stoning children, etc.

I've always thought that's a weird reason to go all the way to being an atheist. You don't have to think that every word of the Bible is literal historical fact in order to be a Christian.

 

[FireDragon76]

It sounds like he could not accept fundamentalist religion and sadly did not see any other alternatives. People that are raised in that sort of environment tend to have a black-and-white attitude towards religion, and the moments doubts are seriously entertained, the whole edifice comes crumbling down. The faith they had was all notional, propositional, and intellectually naive.

My faith is in Jesus as embodied in my religious community, not in the supposed inerrency of the Bible. The Bible does contain alot of difficult stuff, there's no way to dodge that and be intellectually honest. Good churches and religious leaders try to contextualize it using critical tools and do not seek to find literal applications for every biblical narrative or precept in today's world.

 

[Almost there]

That whatever happened in the bible, happened, and for reason.

The bible actually says in many places that God did evil. But if you think about how the word is used, the word evil is really synonymous with "bad" in the bible. And by "bad", it means something bad happened. i.e. when that guy shot the church shooter in Texas, he did a "bad" thing to the shooter. He shot him. And from the shooter's perspective, it was "bad".

But I digress. If a person finds themself judging God for what he does within the ridiculous lifetime of each human being, and ignores the eternal consequences and meaning, they really don't know much about the teachings of Christ.

i.e. there are a lot of people that identify as Christians but can't accurately tell you what it means to be one. And many of them "stop" being Christians - as if they ever were one.

Think of the parable of the sower...

 

[cloudyday2]

I've always thought that's a weird reason to go all the way to being an atheist. You don't have to think that every word of the Bible is literal historical fact in order to be a Christian.

My theory is that a person needs a reason to examine their faith, but that reason isn't necessarily going to the same reason for discarding that faith. Maybe the Christian has "sinful" sexual desires. Or maybe the Christian went to a church where the pastor was a phony. Those aren't good reasons to become an atheist, but they are good reasons to examine the Christian faith, and an examination often leads to atheism.

So a Christian might read the Old Testament for the first time and find God to be unappealing. Then the Christian starts reading atheist books and collects some solid reasons to disbelieve.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Must be something in your eye.


I´m definitely trying to help him. I think everyone is best off when defending their belief authentically and in a consistent manner.
E.g. if (!) it hasn´t been rationality that led someone to their beliefs and/or that their beliefs are founded in, it´s not a good idea to try to defend them in a rational way.
That´s why I think the first think he should do is ask himself: What do I believe and why do I believe this?

No, my eye is just fine, and it's easy to see between the lines.

So you are trying to help, buy suggesting the OPs beliefs are irrational?

JD Leet I think I'd ask the guy what is most likely rational, starting from the beginning, as in:

1)Suddenly POOF! out of nowhere for no reason at all, the universe with all it's complicated bits and pieces, which we can only struggle to try and understand.

2)Or someone smart created it?

Here's a hint, As far as I know, no one on earth has ever seen something come out of nothing, but we see things created by man constantly.

If I had an open box full of all the components needed to make a computer, and I threw it down a flight of stairs, from a logical/"odds are", even a percentages standpoint, it is much much more likely those parts would fall into place by accident and create a complete computer than it is all the universe coming from nothing, just came together, no help at all. The computer would have had so much more help but still the parts just scatter, and we are supposed to believe a big bang, then this all came from nothing?

Next time someone talks about our "magical" God throw that at them, the alternative to God would have to be magic. They should rename the Big Bang, "the POOF! theory", and be required to wield a magic wand when so much as bringing it up...

Anyway, all that considered, I'd be embarrassed to present number 1 as anything near a rational explanation...over the second. Number 1 is so laughable, it's ridiculous.

Then if it's so crazy, why do all these so-called brilliant minds go for the big bang? Brilliant minds who prefer to not be under a God are just as capable of deluding themselves as anyone. People don't want to live as God says they must, so they do all they can to convince themselves he doesn't exist. And to convince others of that, just makes their delusion that much more real to them.

What's really funny, is ridiculous explanations of how it all came to be, don't sound ridiculous at all since they have been drilled into our heads for so long now, but I would bet, there was a time when presented the two options for creation, you'd be laughed out of the room for choosing the first, or so much as suggesting it, as a possibility.

Then, in steps the argument "But we are so much smarter today, compared to those of the past, and our technology gives way to prove where it all began"

To that I would say, then prove it. As far as I know, no one ever has. At best they blab bits and pieces based on biased opinion by some, while there really is nothing there to bring it all together as proof. Or the "claims" become so confusing to some, they choose to just accept it over delving into the details of the individual claims in order to see if there is anything to them.

If you should decide to present any of this, don't do it in as haughty a manner as I do in places. Wrong or right, I just get so tired of the ridiculous being presented as sensible, I sometimes come off the way I do when discussing it..

 

[Doug Melven]

What results did you encounter when asking atheists this your favourite question (and answering on their behalf)?

I am either ignored or shouted down.
But a seed of truth that they hopefully will think about has been planted.
All we can do is plant seeds.
Attempting to reason with someone who is dead set in there belief is just not productive. Plant a seed and let God do what He does.

 

[quatona]

No, my eye is just fine, and it's easy to see between the lines.

No, you are merely projecting your own antagonizing.

So you are trying to help, buy suggesting the OPs beliefs are irrational?

No, I gave an example ["if (!)"]. But since you prefer into between the lines what you want to read rather than reading what I have plainly written, there isn´t much point in talking with you.
If you want to pick a fight, please find yourself someone else. I am not available for that.

 

[quatona]

I am either ignored or shouted down.

Then the method you suggest seems to be pretty ineffective.

 

[dlamberth]

From my own past life experience having at one time been an atheist, my advice is don't talk religion with the person. Neither one of you will convince the other of anything.

 

[Doug Melven]

Then the method you suggest seems to be pretty ineffective.

No, like I said, planting a seed is what is important.
Arguing or attempting to reason will get you nowhere.
But, when they are all alone with there thoughts they will have something to ponder.
But, if I just call them a fool or give some point of reason that they can disagree with I will have gotten nowhere.