Debating rules.

[enoch son]

Interesting. Let see "thinking themself wise they became fools"

 

[Svt4Him]

Thomas Jefferson said, "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

 

[JEBrady]

Thomas Jefferson said, "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

And God said the fool has said in his heart, "there is no God".

And Romans says, "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, nhave been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

 

[Svt4Him]

And what exactly is the point to that? It matters little if they are without excuse, it does matter that we are prepared to give an answer to the hope that is in us. And how is that related to Thomas Jefferson's quote? Sorry, I can't follow the trail.

 

[Tamara224]

And God said the fool has said in his heart, "there is no God".

And Jesus said "seek and you shall find."

Questioning the existence of God is not the same thing as saying "there is no God."

Someone honestly questioning will find the Truth.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Looks logical, but is it true?

 

[KleinerApfel]

That picture hurts my brain!

 

[enoch son]

And what exactly is the point to that? It matters little if they are without excuse, it does matter that we are prepared to give an answer to the hope that is in us. And how is that related to Thomas Jefferson's quote? Sorry, I can't follow the trail.

It's a easy rabbit hole. God already took care of it without your help. Or Jefferson's.

 

[enoch son]

And Jesus said "seek and you shall find."

Questioning the existence of God is not the same thing as saying "there is no God."

Someone honestly questioning will find the Truth.

Then why waste your timing talking to what God has called a fool? Are any of us wiser then God?

 

[Svt4Him]

It's a easy rabbit hole. God already took care of it without your help. Or Jefferson's.

What does this mean? Let me guess that you may be saying that we don't need to use logic or sound arguments in presenting the gospel, yet God has said to give a defense as I've already shown. So if God has said to give a defense, is in not in our interest to give a sound defense, or do you think we can sound like idiots and just rely on God? I'd think that God has also told us to do our best, run a good race, verses what I think you're saying, and that's to not do anything. Can you show me exactly where you get this idea from?

 

[Svt4Him]

Talk to me when you are awaken by Him untill then I have nothing more to say.

Argumentum ad hominem (Abusive: attacking the person)

Argumentum ad hominem literally means "argument directed at the man"; there are two varieties.
The first is the abusive form. If you refuse to accept a statement, and justify your refusal by criticizing the person who made the statement, then you are guilty of abusive argumentum ad hominem. For example:
"You claim that atheists can be moral--yet I happen to know that you abandoned your wife and children."
This is a fallacy because the truth of an assertion doesn't depend on the virtues of the person asserting it. A less blatant argumentum ad hominem is to reject a proposition based on the fact that it was also asserted by some other easily criticized person. For example:
"Therefore we should close down the church? Hitler and Stalin would have agreed with you."
A second form of argumentum ad hominem is to try and persuade someone to accept a statement you make, by referring to that person's particular circumstances. For example:
"Therefore it is perfectly acceptable to kill animals for food. I hope you won't argue otherwise, given that you're quite happy to wear leather shoes."
This is known as circumstantial argumentum ad hominem. The fallacy can also be used as an excuse to reject a particular conclusion. For example:
"Of course you'd argue that positive discrimination is a bad thing. You're white."
This particular form of Argumentum ad Hominem, when you allege that someone is rationalizing a conclusion for selfish reasons, is also known as "poisoning the well."
It's not always invalid to refer to the circumstances of an individual who is making a claim. If someone is a known perjurer or liar, that fact will reduce their credibility as a witness. It won't, however, prove that their testimony is false in this case. It also won't alter the soundness of any logical arguments they may make.

 

[Tamara224]

Then why waste your timing talking to what God has called a fool? Are any of us wiser then God?

If the Holy Spirit leads me to speak to someone who is questioning, then I will speak to him. Who are you to say that I shouldn't?

 

[enoch son]

If the Holy Spirit leads me to speak to someone who is questioning, then I will speak to him. Who are you to say that I shouldn't?

Where did I say you couldn't? I have found the Holy Spirit speak just fine on it owen.

 

[JEBrady]

And what exactly is the point to that? It matters little if they are without excuse, it does matter that we are prepared to give an answer to the hope that is in us. And how is that related to Thomas Jefferson's quote? Sorry, I can't follow the trail.

Sorry, I’ll try to be clearer.

The bible says we all know there’s a God. Just look around. And anyone who believes in his heart that there is no God, like Jefferson, is a fool. To advocate that others boldly question even the existence of God, which they should already know better than, is foolishness. That’s why I quoted the scriptures I did.

Jefferson says to boldly question even the existence of God because he supposes God highly regards man’s reasoning as opposed to blindfolded fear- the fear of questioning God, perhaps. All Jefferson is saying is that he highly regards Reason. Perhaps it was his god.

I’m not aware that God highly regards our reasoning at all. Actually, he considers our reasoning outside of His inspiration to be darkened, earthly, sensual, demonic. Not many of those who reason so well ever find God- they find a reason not to believe. And faith is what God highly regards. He says to us, “come let us reason together”, but it’s that we consider what He is offering us in salvation- considering in faith.

Paul didn’t have much success at Mars Hill. Perhaps all those philosophers were too reasonable. We aren’t going to talk anyone into salvation. What we need when we speak is to be full of the Holy Spirit and have Him give us an apt word that is going to pierce the listener’s heart. Actually, that’s how I got born again- I was arguing with a friend who had recently gotten saved, and wasn’t seeking God at all, and wasn’t buying what he had to say, either. Then he spoke to me by the spirit, and man did God deal with me then. The debate was over.

The scripture says, “have no fear of them, nor be troubled, but set apart Christ as Lord in your heart and be ready to give an defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you”. The context of this passage is suffering, and the admonition is to be strong in the Lord (set apart Christ in your heart) so that you don't become afraid to witness. It is not advocating studying logic, apologetics or debate. When it comes to serving the Lord in the face of persecution, what we need is to have our hearts set on Christ, not our minds set on logic. If we're going to apply any intelligence at all, it ought to be to the scriptures in the first place so that we rightly divide.

Please forgive me for being so blunt- I don't want to offend you in any way, I really think this is important, but Jefferson's statement is utter foolishness.

 

[JEBrady]

And Jesus said "seek and you shall find."

Questioning the existence of God is not the same thing as saying "there is no God."

Granted. And seeking God is not the same thing as “boldly questioning even his existence”, as advocated by an unbeliever who worships human reason and who already admits he doesn’t know that there is a god. And if God should extercise His mercy toward any one of us who happens to be questioning his very existence by drawing us by His Spirit, that in no way justifies the practice telling others to doubt the existence of God.

Jefferson is simply advocating reason above everything else. How far did his philosophy get him?

 

[Svt4Him]

I don't believe Jefferson claimed there was no God, and as a matter of fact claims to be Christian. Therefore the belief that his statement was made to disprove God may not be valid.

Paul did not have success at Mars Hill, I agree. But if you measure success by the amount of people you influence or the amount who turn to Christ, Jesus didn't have great success either, as he only retained 12 out of "many" who were following Him, and one of the 12 betrayed Him:

From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

So the measure of our success is not how many follow God, it is our job to plant and sow, God brings the increase. Our measure of success is how well we followed and listened to God, by faith. And God has said to present to defend our belief in the hope we have, which does advocate apologetics and reasoning as that is what it says. To present a case with excellence doesn't compare to God's wisdom, as even our goodness is gross when held up to God, but that should be an excuse to remain ignorant. We do study to show ourselves approved, so by faith, we have to believe God means what He says and we, by faith, do what He's told us to do because we beleive He is at work here on earth.

Regards.

Now to cite TJ's admission:

http://www.geocities.com/atheismsucks/therealthomasjefferson2.htm

 

[enoch son]

I don't believe Jefferson claimed there was no God, and as a matter of fact claims to be Christian. Therefore the belief that his statement was made to disprove God may not be valid.

Paul did not have success at Mars Hill, I agree. But if you measure success by the amount of people you influence or the amount who turn to Christ, Jesus didn't have great success either, as he only retained 12 out of "many" who were following Him, and one of the 12 betrayed Him:

So the measure of our success is not how many follow God, it is our job to plant and sow, God brings the increase. Our measure of success is how well we followed and listened to God, by faith. And God has said to present to defend our belief in the hope we have, which does advocate apologetics and reasoning as that is what it says. To present a case with excellence doesn't compare to God's wisdom, as even our goodness is gross when held up to God, but that should be an excuse to remain ignorant. We do study to show ourselves approved, so by faith, we have to believe God means what He says and we, by faith, do what He's told us to do because we beleive He is at work here on earth.

Regards.

Now to cite TJ's admission:

http://www.geocities.com/atheismsucks/therealthomasjefferson2.htm

Bull! God plants,waters and gives growth. It is by Him to Him and for Him. And thats everything. To place oneself in to that is to think God needs you and not the other way around. You are no better off then the one you are trying to talk to. Telling them the truth in love no matter what your idea of love is, is the answer. Like someone said " You snakes or your father was the devil" Wasn't that in love? Did they stop Him from forefilling His Fathers love? Oh-well!

 

[Svt4Him]

Wow, I guess God was wrong when He inspired Paul:

5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Here's a question, when Paul proved the scriptures for Christ did his modus Operandi change between who he was speaking to? When he spoke with the Jews who knew the law and when he spoke to the gentiles who knew not the law, was there a difference?

On a side note, I think most people now days, especially the young, aren't looking for logical arguements. or even truthful arguements. They don't want to be told about Christ but want to be shown Christ.

Colossians 1:27, To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

In reading this verse I get the understanding that the way God wants us to prove his love and existance to gentiles is through us; meaning more through our actions and attitudes, not so much through our defending the faith.

I used to go to the open forums Apologetics Forum and would see alot of christians making sound and logical arguements proving Jesus Christ, but with little compassion or love. I was one of them and I saw it as not working. Now I wasn't mean or hateful or anything like that, but would argue much the way we all do here.

 

[nephilimiyr]

The sad thing about an internet message board forum when talking apologetics with non-believers is that it's hard to show compassion and love, or at least to prove you have it towards them. The non-believer always will judge you by how they have judged the christians they know around them, and too often the christians around them aren't showing them compassion and love.