Debating Points On Catholic Theology

[Gregory Thompson]

1) Worshiping Mary, (especially the rosary)
2) Purgatory (everything and anything)
3) and Pre-written Prayers (We Don't always pray from our hearts to God)

1) hmm well i haven't found a way to make Mary God so i won't bother . but one thing i found similar was the way wisdom/The Holy Sprit entered into creation from the oneness of God . it was very similar to the way Eve entered the creation from the rib of Adam .

2) Well i've found if i look at the reason for the judgment and the lake of fire as Sin, and i see Sin as a parasitic entity and the scripture allows such an interpretation or so i have found, then perhaps the lake of fire really is just meant to purge the sin out of the creation . because it is written that no one in their resurrected form with sin in them can enter into the city of God .. but later on it is written that the Spirit and the Bride (us) say "come" and drink of the water of life freely . so on the off chance this is written to .. say those still captivated by sin . hey i'll wait to see what happens after what is written .

3) dunno, sometimes it helps to focus thoughts in advance . but i'm more of a spontaneous person myself . but when i'm singing in the spirit . i really need the words there in front of me or i just make lyrics up . which is a problem because my voice can be loud ..

that's my impression . hope that is good food for thought .

 

[Auburn88]

1) hmm well i haven't found a way to make Mary God so i won't bother . but one thing i found similar was the way wisdom/The Holy Sprit entered into creation from the oneness of God . it was very similar to the way Eve entered the creation from the rib of Adam .

Yeah, that's called modalism. Like infused righteousness and Replacement Theology, it's a heresy.

 

[Auburn88]

I'm with Jack on this one, faith in Christ is the common denominator.

Mormons say they have faith in Christ. Are they my "brother" too?

I believe you are if you hold faith in Christ; as defined in the Nicene Creed... which BTW is the statement of faith held by Christian Forums.

Which would be lovely, if the scriptures limited the definition of a Christian to the Nicene Creed, but it does not. There are many people who affirm the Nicene Creed, but who are not Christians.

 

[Rhamiel]

how is it a "replacement" if part of Israel has become Christian... the 12 Apostles, Paul, many people through the ages have converted from judaism to christianity
so Christianity contains in itself the faithful remniant of Israel and the gentiles who have been grafted on

the Church is Israel, it did not "replace" israel but it is a continuation of the Jews who believe in Jesus and the gentiles who have been grafted on

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Yeah, that's called modalism. Like infused righteousness and Replacement Theology, it's a heresy.

Well, you sound dead set on your opinion, but i'll give this a shot anyway .

What i'm talking about is definitely not Modalism . Trinity means God is a community of three people . all three people are God . but each person is not the other person . it is called Trinity . i experience it every day in each human to human interaction .

i find the best picture of the trinity is putting pure light through a prism and seeing the three primary colours . and from these three primary colours . we get our likeness .

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Yeah, that's called modalism. Like infused righteousness and Replacement Theology, it's a heresy.

Wiki has some info on this Replacement Theology.

Never heard it before.

By contrast, in modern discourse, the term supersessionism arises as a criticism of a (perceived) Christian belief in Jewish exclusion, not as a Christian articulation of their own understanding of the relation between the Christians and Jews. Modern Christian descriptions of the New Testament teaching in this area focus on Gentile inclusion in God's plans, without much if any consideration of Jewish exclusion.[citation needed] Although modern Christians, nearly all of whom are Gentiles, naturally believe in Gentile inclusion, they are divided in their understanding of whether the New Testament teaches Jewish exclusion. In short, some modern Christians believe in supersessionism and others don't. There is also some disagreement among Christians in regard to what, precisely, is superseded: the Old Covenant, or the Jewish people themselves.

Supersessionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


But it is nice to learn of different terminology.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Ok this is probably going to be a troll mosh pit and a half but hopefully we can get some good answers out.

So as a Catholic we Have to Fight For our church ecspecially from more Evangelical/modern Protestant churches. So like any good debater they attack ones position and make them feel like there wrong.

So over the last 2000 years our church has refined much of its structure and is very in depth in many aspects but for most people ecspecially young posters such as myself we can barely grasp what's on the surface, and of course this is where we get attacked.

So some Common Arguements on the Church I've seen is.

Worshiping Mary, (especially the rosary)
Purgatory (everything and anything)
and Pre-written Prayers (We Don't always pray from our hearts to God)

So some insight on some of these questions could be very good and also if others have debatable issues they could also bring these questions in.

Pre-written Prayers...

That is a subject I do not recall discussing in GT.

I have seen many threads that address Mary and the false notion that RCC worship her and Purgatory which is the cleansing of a soul as though through Fire.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Pre-written Prayers...

That is a subject I do not recall discussing in GT.

I have seen many threads that address Mary and the false notion that RCC worship her and Purgatory which is the cleansing of a soul as though through Fire.

Hi JacktheCatholic,

yeah, lots of interesting bits of conversation . (Re: Mary, venerated vs worshipped) usually its examining a statement with an opposing premise that causes such arguments right? but understanding it from the premise of those who wrote it . makes it sound a bit more reasonable . doesn't it? it's nice there is a woman role model in the Catholic church . i think a lot of problems that exist today in countries affected by protestant evangelism over the centuries was because of a lack of respect for women . this is where understanding unity and trinity are so important so we have the "harmony" Paul spoke of in Ephesians 5:24-27 .

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

So had a question, does the Catholic concept of purgatory only apply to those who know Jesus? or does it widen the scope?

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Purgatory is only for those souls going to Heaven. It is a cleansing and not really a place (IMO).

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Purgatory is only for those souls going to Heaven. It is a cleansing and not really a place (IMO).

Thank you Jack

The only time it is referred to as "maybe" a place is in the letters to the seven churches . where it is implied those who don't overcome a certain trial will be "hurt" by the second death . and this concept seems to be the only one that matches up with it .

but this would of course open up another concept that perhaps at the "white throne judgment" God does not pull out the book of life in vain?

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Thank you Jack

The only time it is referred to as "maybe" a place is in the letters to the seven churches . where it is implied those who don't overcome a certain trial will be "hurt" by the second death . and this concept seems to be the only one that matches up with it .

but this would of course open up another concept that perhaps at the "white throne judgment" God does not pull out the book of life in vain?

Yeah, I do not think God does anything in Vain.

Regarding Purgatory, my favorite scripture for it is 1 Corinthians 3:

10
6 According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it,
11
for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ.
12
If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,
13
the work of each will come to light, for the Day 7 will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work.
14
If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
15
But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, 8 but only as through fire.
16
Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
17
If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for the temple of God, which you are, is holy. 9
18
Let no one deceive himself. If any one among you considers himself wise in this age, let him become a fool so as to become wise.
19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in the eyes of God, for it is written: "He catches the wise in their own ruses,"

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Thank you Jack, it's one of my favourites also . it is fun to discuss these things . thanks .

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Thank you Jack, it's one of my favourites also . it is fun to discuss these things . thanks .

You are most welcome. I enjoy answering questions that I think I can. I also enjoy learning of other's perspectives.



God bless you and yours.

 

[sunlover1]

Pre-written Prayers...

That is a subject I do not recall discussing in GT.

What is the "pre-written prayer' question about?

sunlover(lover of pre-written prayers)

 

[Rhamiel]

What is the "pre-written prayer' question about?

sunlover(lover of pre-written prayers)

some, not many but some people claim that pre-written prayers are a form of vain repitition, but i have never heard a real intelectual argument about that

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What is the "pre-written prayer' question about?

sunlover(lover of pre-written prayers)

Originally Posted by JacktheCatholic Pre-written Prayers...

That is a subject I do not recall discussing in GT.

;55733555]What is the "pre-written prayer' question about?

sunlover(lover of pre-written prayers)

From what I remember, my bro Daniel ofter offered up prayers and supplications for his people, Israel
Not sure how the RCs view this in relation to the Protestant/Jewish view ehehe

http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/daniel.html

Young) Daniel 12:7 And I hear the one clothed in linen, who [is] upon the waters of the flood, and he doth lift up his right hand and his left unto the heavens,
and sweareth by Him who is living to the age, that, `After a time, times, and a half, and at the completion of the scattering of the power of the holy people, finished are all these.'
[Reve 10:5]

Revelation 12:14 And were given the woman the two wings of the eagle, the great, that she might fly into the wilderness, into place of her, where she is being nourished there for a time and times and half a time, from face of the serpent.

Revelation 10:5 And the Messenger whom I saw standing upon the sea, and upon the land, lifts the hand of him, the right, into the heaven,
6 and He swears in the One-living who lives into the ages of the ages, who creates the heaven and the in him, and the land and the in her, and the sea and the in her--that time not still shall be,
[Daniel 12:7]

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I don't see the pre-written prayers as a vain repetition . but i have noticed it sometimes limits the conversational element of prayer . doesn't have to though . reading through a prayer book can be very inspirational . kinda like reading through the psalms .

 

[bbbbbbb]

I don't see the pre-written prayers as a vain repetition . but i have noticed it sometimes limits the conversational element of prayer . doesn't have to though . reading through a prayer book can be very inspirational . kinda like reading through the psalms .

Have you considered singing the Psalms? As you probably know they are the musical heritage of the Church.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Have you considered singing the Psalms? As you probably know they are the musical heritage of the Church.

We do and they work nicely into song, as they may have been meant for.

This is what the RCC sings after the first reading today:

Ps 15:2-3a, 3bc-4ab, 5
Responsorial Psalm

R. (1) The just one shall live on your holy mountain, O Lord.
He who walks blamelessly and does justice;
who thinks the truth in his heart
and slanders not with his tongue.
R. The just one shall live on your holy mountain, O Lord.
Who harms not his fellow man,
nor takes up a reproach against his neighbor;
By whom the reprobate is despised,
while he honors those who fear the LORD.
R. The just one shall live on your holy mountain, O Lord.
Who lends not his money at usury
and accepts no bribe against the innocent.
He who does these things
shall never be disturbed.
R. The just one shall live on your holy mountain, O Lord.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Have you considered singing the Psalms? As you probably know they are the musical heritage of the Church.

We do it every Sunday! Sometimes responsively; whole verse by whole verse with the Pastor, sometimes with the Choir or Cantor, Sometimes we chant the whole Psalm together. Variety!