Debate help...why is homosexuality wrong?

HunterRose · Jun 20, 2006

Kgreg said:
The Law was for the Jews. Christians were never under the Law, as the last thing Jesus said on the cross is "It is finished". At that moment the obligation of the Jews to live according to the Law ended, and all believers fell under grace.

Sowhy is Leviticus brought up time and again to condemn gays and lesbians?

We live according to the New Testament, not the OT.

So the ten commandments areout?

HunterRose · Jun 20, 2006

Proselyte said:
We are addressing Christians who are advocating a homosexual lifestyle.

Againwhat is this homosexual lifestyle? is it anything like the black lifestyle or the atheist lifestyle?

What strikes me is I see people here advocating equality and justiceand sadly I see people here opposing these things in favor of prejudice and discrimination.

As Christians who hold to Biblical ideals, we are witnessing to, sharing with, or correcting wayward Christians.

Can you explain how justifying prejudice accomplishes this?

A) If you don't acknowledge that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, then our argument will hold no water with you. So be it. Just say so if that is the case.

B) If you do hold the Bible as the inerrant Word of God, then what we say must have some meaning with you.

So which is it? A or B?

It seems like we are rehashing the same thing over and over again. State your position with the Bible and let's put this to rest.

You have presented a false dilemma.

At issue is personal interoperation. You are saying either people must agree with your personnel interoperation of the bible to be Christians

Proselyte · Jun 20, 2006

HunterRose said:
Againwhat is this homosexual lifestyle? is it anything like the black lifestyle or the atheist lifestyle?

What strikes me is I see people here advocating equality and justiceand sadly I see people here opposing these things in favor of prejudice and discrimination.

Can you explain how justifying prejudice accomplishes this?

You have presented a false dilemma.

At issue is personal interoperation. You are saying either people must agree with your personnel interoperation of the bible to be Christians

It's a simple question, what is YOUR view on the Bible? Is it the inerrant Word of God, or something fallible that man wrote? You tell me.

Kgreg · Jun 20, 2006

HunterRose said:
Ive read his writings.he is good.

You know then that he is a "unitarian" and doesn't believe in God. He is also a practicing homosexual.

Are you going to respond to post #297?

Kgreg · Jun 20, 2006

HunterRose said:
Sowhy is Leviticus brought up time and again to condemn gays and lesbians?

So the ten commandments areout?

Sowhy is Leviticus brought up time and again to condemn gays and lesbians?

Good question. But then maybe it's because it condenms gays and lesbians!

Although the NT more than sufficiently condemns homosexual practices.

So the ten commandments areout?

All the instruction in the Ten Commandments is reiterated in the NT.

HunterRose · Jun 20, 2006

Kgreg said:
You know then that he is a "unitarian"

According to his icon here yes does seem to be a Unitarianso what?

and doesn't believe in God.

He seems to disagree with you on this point.
Are saying you know the details of his personal relationship with God better than he does?

He is also a practicing homosexual.

Does his wife know?

Are you going to respond to post #297?

why?

HunterRose · Jun 20, 2006

Proselyte said:
It's a simple question, what is YOUR view on the Bible? Is it the inerrant Word of God, or something fallible that man wrote? You tell me.

As already notedYou have presented a false dilemma. It is a logical fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy

Back to this gay lifestyle you keep brining up is it anything like the black lifestyle?

Proselyte · Jun 20, 2006

HunterRose said:
As already notedYou have presented a false dilemma. It is a logical fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy

Back to this gay lifestyle you keep brining up is it anything like the black lifestyle?

translation = side step question, spurt propaganda.

I'm sorry, I thought we were having a discussion here.

crumbs2000 · Jun 20, 2006

Colabomb said:
The Gospels were not written by Christ. How do you know they do not fall under the same "Biases"?

Actually they do fall under the same biases. Anything not written at the time by the actual people, which are translations of oral stories are subject to bias and errors.

crumbs2000 · Jun 20, 2006

Kgreg said:
Good question. But then maybe it's because it condenms gays and lesbians!

Although the NT more than sufficiently condemns homosexual practices.

All the instruction in the Ten Commandments is reiterated in the NT.

So should we put to death children who curseth their father and mothers? That's also OT law. Should we keep slaves and treat them like cattle also?

I'm so sick of people quoting OT to persecute a particular group of people and then - when you take them to task about all the Levitical Laws, they say, Oh, the NT makes everything right and we don't need Levitical laws anymore. You can't have it both ways!

In fact OT laws are to be upheld according to many passages in NT, yet NO ONE ever abided by the more extreme OT laws even the Jews of the time.

There are so many proposterous and barbaric things in the OT.

crumbs2000 · Jun 20, 2006

HunterRose said:
As already notedYou have presented a false dilemma. It is a logical fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy

Back to this gay lifestyle you keep brining up is it anything like the black lifestyle?

Excellent point on the logical fallacy!

crumbs2000 · Jun 20, 2006

Kgreg said:
The Law was for the Jews. Christians were never under the Law, as the last thing Jesus said on the cross is "It is finished". At that moment the obligation of the Jews to live according to the Law ended, and all believers fell under grace.

We live according to the New Testament, not the OT.

That's the biggest cop-out that literalists give about the OT.

Then what does this all mean:

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 )
"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16)

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21)

Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).

“...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

crumbs2000 · Jun 20, 2006

Colabomb said:
I did not call anyone an Urge, I said that they had an urge.

Scripture is clear that homosexual sex is a sin, on the same level as theft.

Therefore the Kleptomaniac analogy fits.

The bible also says that you can sell your daughter as a sex slave.

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11)

And to answer your theft analogy which is totally inaccurate as Kleptomania is a disease by the way.

Should we steal? (Exodus 20:15 & Leviticus 19:13) Stealing is absolutely forbidden. Yet, Exodus 3:21-22, 12:35-36 & Luke 19:29-34 all promote stealing.

Proselyte · Jun 20, 2006

crumbs2000 said:
Excellent point on the logical fallacy!

Crumbs, your's and Hunter's view on the Bible being fallible and in error is ironic. When I first created this post, I needed non-Biblical reasons to debate with my non-Christian friends on why homosexuality is wrong. There weren't many, if at all. The Bible however had several passages. I needed non Biblical answers because my non-Christian friends don't hold the Bible as any authority, same as you both.

It is ironic that I was seeking answers from Christians on non-Biblical answers, and I met resistance from Christians such as you and Hunter because you don't adhere to the Bible, just like my non-Christian friends.

HunterRose · Jun 20, 2006

Proselyte said:
translation = side step question, spurt propaganda.

I'm sorry, I thought we were having a discussion here.

We were trying but you keep sidestepping the question: What is this gay lifestyle you keep brining up is it anything like the black lifestyle? And spurting propaganda

crumbs2000 · Jun 20, 2006

Kgreg said:
Hmmmm.....

Care to answer some questions "HunterRose"?

Do you believe in the Triune God?

Do you believe that the Bible is the Word of God?

Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God?

Do you believe in the subsitutionary attonement of Jesus for our sins?

Do you believe that homosexual sex acts are righteous before God?

Do you believe there is a heaven and that the one and only God dwells there?

Do you believe there is a hell and that all people who don't accept salvation via Jesus go there for eternity?

Your profile doesn't really say much about you at all. Just so we better understand where you are coming from, as it doesn't really seem very Roman Catholic Church, would you please answer the questions?

Thanks.

How is this relevant. This line of questioning sounds like argumentum ad hominem.

Hunter Rose has countered your scripture with scripture. There has not been one example of Hunter Rose adding anything else to those scripture. Why do they have to justify what they wrote?

HunterRose · Jun 20, 2006

Proselyte said:
Crumbs, your's and Hunter's view on the Bible being fallible and in error is ironic.

Point in fact my view (I cannot and will not speak for crumbs) is that interpretation of the bible is fallible.

You seem to have confused having a different interpretation than you with rejecting the bible.

When I first created this post, I needed non-Biblical reasons to debate with my non-Christian friends on why homosexuality is wrong. There weren't many, if at all.

I dont remember any at allwhich should say quite a lot.

The Bible however had several passages. I needed non Biblical answers because my non-Christian friends don't hold the Bible as any authority, same as you both.

Againdisagreeing with your personal interpretation or daring to have a different interpretation is NOT rejecting the bible

HunterRose · Jun 20, 2006

crumbs2000 said:
How is this relevant. This line of questioning sounds like argumentum ad hominem.

Hunter Rose has countered your scripture with scripture. There has not been one example of Hunter Rose adding anything else to those scripture. Why do they have to justify what they wrote?

Good point crumbsthanks

ThyNeighbor · Jun 20, 2006

Proselyte said:
Hello friends. A discussion has opened up between my non-Christian friends and I regarding some issues. One of them is the topic of homosexuality.

As we all know, the Bible is clear on being against this lifestyle. What I need is some other reasons to use with my friends on this topic. The reason being is that they don't believe the Bible, or in Jesus. If I just say the Bible says so, that's not going to help their understanding. Topics like murder, aldutery, abortion to some extent are easier to debate due to the effects they have on other people. But how about homosexuality?

I've already taken into account the fact that at its basic level, it doesn't propagate the species. I still think I need something else to go with.

Many of these friends are curious, and I have been opening the door to Christianity with them. My goal is to continue to do so in a caring and loving manner, and not force anything on them, as that isn't always effective.

Thanks!

Proselyte,

As you have seen in this debate there have been many professing Christians that do not agree that homosexuality is a sin. I understand that your view is different than theirs and I am not here to debate the rightness or wrongness of what scripture has to say on it. However, your reason for even posing the question was to find a way to reach, and hopefully lead to Christ, your non Christian friends. How would you feel if they were to read the posting in this forum? Do you think that they would be brought any closer to accepting Jesus by what the Christians here have written? What do you think their view of Jesus might be after reading all this?

crumbs2000 · Jun 20, 2006

Proselyte said:
Crumbs, your's and Hunter's view on the Bible being fallible and in error is ironic. When I first created this post, I needed non-Biblical reasons to debate with my non-Christian friends on why homosexuality is wrong. There weren't many, if at all. The Bible however had several passages. I needed non Biblical answers because my non-Christian friends don't hold the Bible as any authority, same as you both.

It is ironic that I was seeking answers from Christians on non-Biblical answers, and I met resistance from Christians such as you and Hunter because you don't adhere to the Bible, just like my non-Christian friends.

Proselyte, from the discussions we have had in the past 6 or so pages, it's obvious that the bible has many many contradictory teachings in it. As I have stated before, the problem I have with many literalists is that they seem to ignore certain parts of the bible and choose others to prosecute their prejudices.

Debate help...why is homosexuality wrong?

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