Debate help...why is homosexuality wrong?

countyfair said:

Sin is anything that we do that brings us away from god of course.

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Then what do you take the Torah to be?

I think that's rather vague; it's not God that we're taken away from through sin, it's our original natures. That's the intent of the OT Law. It's not applicable as law after Christ's atonement for our sins, but it is applicable towards explaining what our nature is intended to be.

intricatic said:

Then what do you take the Torah to be?

I think that's rather vague; it's not God that we're taken away from through sin, it's our original natures. That's the intent of the OT Law. It's not applicable as law after Christ's atonement for our sins, but it is applicable towards explaining what our nature is intended to be.

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But is not god our origional nature?
lol...
In a round about way.
Sin is a wall we built around ourself. A wall from god, a wall from ourselves, a wall from everyone else.
And, according to Christians, Jesus came to tear down these walls, so that we could get to God.

countyfair said:

But is not god our origional nature?
lol...
In a round about way.
Sin is a wall we built around ourself. A wall from god, a wall from ourselves, a wall from everyone else.
And, according to Christians, Jesus came to tear down these walls, so that we could get to God.

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Indeed, Christ came to tear down that wall - to allow us to become more like our original nature through intervention of the Holy Spirit.

You might say that God's nature is our original nature, but at the same time, we have a unique nature which is only akin to God. As Jesus was both man and God, He was the perfect man on Earth - the ideal of what we should be. But He was also God, which is greater than man; Man is creation, God is creator.

Sin is deviation from our natures; the OP is homosexuality, and it's interesting that the Torah, which Christ Himself proclaimed to be the archetype for our natures, specifically forbids it in multiple places.

Rom 1:21-32 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (23) And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: (25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. (26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: (27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. (28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; (29) Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, (30) Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, (31) Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: (32) Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

The bible speaks of homosexuals as being versus 29 and 30. I know you have your minds made up and thats fine you are going on emotions. I do not use emotions to make my points I use the BIBLE.

MorganParadise said:

Rom 1:21-32 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (23) And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: (25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. (26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: (27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. (28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; (29) Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, (30) Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, (31) Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: (32) Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

The bible speaks of homosexuals as being versus 29 and 30. I know you have your minds made up and thats fine you are going on emotions. I do not use emotions to make my points I use the BIBLE.

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The relationships are referred to as being unnatural. the Greek words physin and paraphysin have been translated to mean natural and unnatural respectively. Contrary to popular belief, the word paraphysin does not mean "to go against the laws of nature", but rather engage in action(s) which is uncharacteristic for that person. An example of the word paraphysin is used in Romans 11:24, where God acts in an uncharacteristic (paraphysin) way to accept the Gentiles. Thus the passage correctly reads that it would be unnatural for heterosexuals to live as homosexuals, and for homosexuals to live as heterosexuals.

Proselyte said:

1 Corinthians 6:9 NIV
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous[1] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality.

Paul says flat out that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God. Do you reject Paul? Do you reject scripture?
You are making all kinds of translations arguments, but it's right there in front of our eyes...

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Amen brother Amen. Now its not about us now they have to decide wheather they want to argue with the Bible. Ill be no part of that debate. The Holy Bible is the inspired words of God.

MorganParadise said:

Rom 1:21-32 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (23) And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: (25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. (26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: (27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. (28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; (29) Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, (30) Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, (31) Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: (32) Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

The bible speaks of homosexuals as being versus 29 and 30. I know you have your minds made up and thats fine you are going on emotions. I do not use emotions to make my points I use the BIBLE.

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You use the Bible?? Well, afraid I do not see anything about homosexuals in that passage, sorry. Is this one of the "read in between the lines" thing? Or do I have to learn code?

Proselyte said:

Countyfair, how about what I posted:

1 Corinthians 6:9 NIV
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous[1] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality.

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But child, homosexuality is not simply sex with another man or woman.
Homosexuality involves more than sex.
Many homosexuals never have sex with another person of the same gender. If someone is emotionally attracted to someone of the same sex, is considered homosexual, but there is no sex of any kind, is it still wrong? I agree that same sex marriages should not take place, but you can not narrow down homosexuality to simply sex, and to simply a sin problem.

countyfair said:

You use the Bible?? Well, afraid I do not see anything about homosexuals in that passage, sorry. Is this one of the "read in between the lines" thing? Or do I have to learn code?

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Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:

to dishonour their own bodies between themselves; either alone, or with others; so that as they changed the glory of God, and dishonoured him, he left them to dishonour themselves by doing these things which were reproachful and scandalous to human nature.
I read this as to not only include homosexuals but also touching yourself and any other form of non marital sex.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

for even the women did change the natural use into that which is against nature; either by prostituting themselves to, and complying with the "sodomitical" embraces of men, in a way that is against nature (h); or by making use of such ways and methods with themselves, or other women, to gratify their lusts, which were never designed by nature for such an use

Rom 1:27 - And likewise also the men leaving the natural use of the women,.... The very sin of "sodomy" is here designed, so called from Sodom, the place where we first hear of it, Gen_19:5, the men of which place, because they
burned in their lust one towards another, as these Gentiles are said to do, God rained upon them fire and brimstone from heaven: an exceeding great sin this is, contrary to nature, dishonourable to human nature, and scandalous to a people and nation among whom it prevails, as it did very much in the Gentile world, and among their greatest philosophers; even those that were most noted for moral virtue are charged with it, as Socrates, Plato, Zeno, and others (m): it is a sin which generally prevails where idolatry and infidelity do, as among the Pagans of old, and among the Papists and Mahometans now; and never was it so rife in this nation as since the schemes of deism and infidelity have found such a reception among us. Thus God, because men dishonour him with their evil principles and practices, leaves them to reproach their own nature, and dishonour their own bodies:
men with men working that which is unseemly; and of which nothing like it is to be observed in the brutal world:
receiving in themselves the recompence of their error, which was meet: God punishes sin with sin; for as the Jews say as
"one commandment draws on another, so one transgression draws on another; for the reward of the commandment

No I did not write this the credit goes to John Gills comentary and yes you do need to read into it the context. No it doesnt come right out and say Homosexuals it also talks of Men with Women and Sodomy, yes here we find out even that is a sin. This could go on and on forever it seems someone will always disagree and thats what makes us human. I love a good debate.

Proselyte said:

We all have struggles. We are called not to act upon those in the Bible. Temptation comes in many forms. It may be pornography, gambling, drug addiction...homosexuality etc...
At any rate, the Bible is clear that homosexuality is not to be practiced, celebrated, or encouraged.
For the person with homosexual tendencies, hopefully he/she can learn to overcome that issue. A pastor is an excellent person to speak with about it.

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Oh really? Hopefully? Why? Does it matter? If I someone is slightly bisexual, and are occasionally attracted to another man or woman, but nothing is acted upon, is this sinful? Is temptation the sin,or is it the actions. Even Jesus was tempted. I find that the Bible is rarely clear on anything. If in fact, it was as clear as claimed, there would be much less debate about things.

Also, most people with homosexual tendencies will never overcome them. It is not something that has to control their lives, does not have to come between them and God. Someone who has homosexual "tendencies" can still be heterosexual, reproduce, marry, fall in love "heterosexually".

What is your definition of sexuality?

MorganParadise said:

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:

to dishonour their own bodies between themselves; either alone, or with others; so that as they changed the glory of God, and dishonoured him, he left them to dishonour themselves by doing these things which were reproachful and scandalous to human nature.
I read this as to not only include homosexuals but also touching yourself and any other form of non marital sex.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

for even the women did change the natural use into that which is against nature; either by prostituting themselves to, and complying with the "sodomitical" embraces of men, in a way that is against nature (h); or by making use of such ways and methods with themselves, or other women, to gratify their lusts, which were never designed by nature for such an use

Rom 1:27 - And likewise also the men leaving the natural use of the women,.... The very sin of "sodomy" is here designed, so called from Sodom, the place where we first hear of it, Gen_19:5, the men of which place, because they
burned in their lust one towards another, as these Gentiles are said to do, God rained upon them fire and brimstone from heaven: an exceeding great sin this is, contrary to nature, dishonourable to human nature, and scandalous to a people and nation among whom it prevails, as it did very much in the Gentile world, and among their greatest philosophers; even those that were most noted for moral virtue are charged with it, as Socrates, Plato, Zeno, and others (m): it is a sin which generally prevails where idolatry and infidelity do, as among the Pagans of old, and among the Papists and Mahometans now; and never was it so rife in this nation as since the schemes of deism and infidelity have found such a reception among us. Thus God, because men dishonour him with their evil principles and practices, leaves them to reproach their own nature, and dishonour their own bodies:
men with men working that which is unseemly; and of which nothing like it is to be observed in the brutal world:
receiving in themselves the recompence of their error, which was meet: God punishes sin with sin; for as the Jews say as
"one commandment draws on another, so one transgression draws on another; for the reward of the commandment

No I did not write this the credit goes to John Gills comentary and yes you do need to read into it the context. No it doesnt come right out and say Homosexuals it also talks of Men with Women and Sodomy, yes here we find out even that is a sin. This could go on and on forever it seems someone will always disagree and thats what makes us human. I love a good debate.

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As do I. Although, it seems that your english is worse than mine! I had hard time reading what you wrote. But yes, people will always disagree. I believe that this is good thing, in a way, because we all need to rethink everything. Thinking and questioning even the Bible is not wrong, or sinful, God gave us minds so that we could use them. He does not want us just to blindly accept everything that comes our way. In this, including the Bible.

As for these passages, and the commentaries, I find them rather amusing. The papists! Plato! Lmao. "God punishes sin with sin." Are you kidding me?

Proselyte said:

Leviticus 18:22 states: "Thou shall not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination."

The Bible is pretty clear on the matter. There are other quotes, but this one says it all.
If I don't listen to what the Bible says about this, why should I listen about adultery, theft etc?
I don't want to start picking and choosing what I agree with in the Bible to fit my comfortable world view...

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Thank you for your words. They were exactly what I was looking for.

countyfair said:

But child, homosexuality is not simply sex with another man or woman.
Homosexuality involves more than sex.
Many homosexuals never have sex with another person of the same gender. If someone is emotionally attracted to someone of the same sex, is considered homosexual, but there is no sex of any kind, is it still wrong? I agree that same sex marriages should not take place, but you can not narrow down homosexuality to simply sex, and to simply a sin problem.

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Since the verses are about sex, I don't think it's wrong if there is no sex in the relationship.
(I don't really think it's a sin anyway)

akaibara said:

Since the verses are about sex, I don't think it's wrong if there is no sex in the relationship.
(I don't really think it's a sin anyway)

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Lol. I'm not really sure myself either. It is not just a black and white issue, as so many christians think it is.

Proselyte-

I myself disapprove of homosexuality, as I also disapprove of fornication (sex before marriage) and adultery. Any form of sexual union outside the marriage bed as ordained by God is to be considered as sin.

As for arguments outside the realm of Scripture, there was a news special on one of the major networks a few years ago. This special took us inside the world of the homosexuals of San Francisco to see what it entailed. One of the leaders of the gay movement was the tour director for part of the report; for another part the news crew had to adopt a clandestine form in order to get the proper coverage.

One word could be used to describe their entire range of actions: narcissism. They had 'sex shops' there where 'partners' could frolic; the guide made a point of emphasizing that there were medical teams there to repair damage to the submissive. Some of the devices which he showed the news team and identified as 'toys' were used in torture chambers during the middle ages.

The news crew talked with two children who had recently been told by a group of strangers that they were no longer to 'trespass' into the municipal park which was located across the street from their home. They had played there since they were toddlers, and neither of them was yet teenagers.

A news crew tried to get into that park in broad daylight while carrying camera equipment, and were denied admittance by guards posted at the gates. Their technicians performed some 'magic' so that the camera equipment was still useful but entirely hidden. They requested of the guards that they merely be allowed to drive straight through the park and were granted permission. What they filmed and broadcast on their news special were blatantly licentious sexual acts taking place where children used to be able to play, and in full view of anyone who chose to be in that park at that time of day.

When we are dealing with these people we are not dealing with those who are admitting that they have a spiritual Achilles' heel. We are dealing instead with those who would take a Christian society and culture, rip it to shreds, and then replace it with their own societal culture.

I can find no more appropriate place for the following passage of Scripture:

"Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshipped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord." (Joshua 24:14-15,NIV)