Debate challenge on the deity of Christ

[ewq1938]

The servant is Israel herself, the punishment that Israel suffered even if excessive-that punishment isn’t meaningless, it will lead to redemption. Israel will be healed by her wounds. Israel’s suffering is serving a purpose in the divine plan, it’s necessary. Israel needs purification and redemption and that will prepare her for a new role in world history. Remember I have context and Israel's history on my side?

A nation of people does not fit into what Isaiah spoke about. That is clear from the context. The suffering servant is a singular individual.


A careful reading of it makes it clear enough that this is about a single person not a nation of people spanning centuries.





Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


How can a nation bare the sin of itself? Obvious the WE is Israel and the HE is this single man.


This matches the life and death of Jesus Christ perfectly and shows how a single man would bare the sins for everyone else. He died with transgressors, buried in a rich man's grave...a fulfilled prophecy.

 

[newnature22]

I would say you are taking things out of context! Let’s take a long look at these two historical events that took place. Point 1 “My nature will become evident from my actions,” clearly Yahweh brought the children of Israel out of Egypt, and the rest is recorded history! Yahweh was not identified with nature, Yahweh transcended nature; and Yahweh wasn’t known through nature or natural phenomena. Yahweh was known through history, events and a particular relationship with a man, which Yahweh formed from the dust of the earth. Need I say more about point 1?


Point 2 The servant is Israel herself! The punishment that Israel suffered, even if excessive-that punishment isn’t meaningless, it will lead to redemption. Israel will be healed by her wounds. Israel’s suffering is serving a purpose in the divine plan, it’s necessary. Israel needs purification and redemption and that will prepare her for a new role in world history.


The fall of Jerusalem shattered the national and territorial basis of Israel’s culture and religion. The Babylonians had burned the temple to the ground, they carried away most of the people to exile, to life in exile in Babylon, leaving behind mostly members of the lower classes to eke out a living as best they could. And it was the completion of the tragedy that had begun centuries earlier, and it was interpreted as a fulfillment of the covenant curses.



It was the end of the Davidic monarchy, although the son of Jeholakim was alive and living in Babylon, kind of holding out hope that the line hadn’t actually been killed out, hadn’t been completely wiped out. But the institution seemed to have come to an end for now. It was the end of the temple, the end of the priesthood, the end of Israel as a nation; as an autonomous nation, the Israelites were confronted with a great test. One could see in these events a signal that Yahweh had abandoned Israel to, or had been defeated by the god of the Babylonians, and Marduk would replace Yahweh, as the Israelites assimilated themselves into their new home.


And certainly there were Israelites who went that route, but others who were firmly rooted in exclusive Yahwism did not. Yahweh hadn’t been defeated, the nations’s calamities were not disproof of Yahweh’s power and covenant, they were proof of it. Yahweh’s desire for morality as expressed in the ancient covenant, the prophets had spoken truly when they had said that destruction would follow, if the people didn’t turn from their moral and religious violations of Yahweh’s law. The defeat and the exile had the potential to convince Israelites of the need to show absolute and undivided devotion to Yahweh and his commandments.



The traditions of gods abandoning their cities in anger, leaving them to destruction by another god. The primary difference here is that Yahweh, rather than another god, is Yahweh himself also bringing the destruction. Yahweh doesn’t retire to heaven, nor abandons his people. Yahweh doesn’t remain behind with those left in Judah, but Yahweh moves into exile; those left behind are guilty. Yahweh does not stay with them; Yahweh moves east with the righteous exiles. Need I say more about point 2? You are box in, two of your anchor concepts about Jesus have just been taken from you with Israel’s history!

 

[ewq1938]

Point 2 The servant is Israel herself!

Israel didn't die. The suffering servant died for the sins of Israel. That's the entire context of the chapter. One man dying for the sins of many.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I would like to propose a debate in regards to the deity of Christ. I believe scripture is very clear that Jesus Christ is God in flesh. If you disagree, let me know and we will debate it.

Those who use the phrase "the deity of Christ" seem to me to be saying that it was God who became flesh and not that it was The Son of God who became flesh.The Bible clearly tells us that God sent his Son to us not that he sent himself to us.

 

[ewq1938]

Those who use the phrase "the deity of Christ" seem to me to be saying that it was God who became flesh and not that it was The Son of God who became flesh.The Bible clearly tells us that God sent his Son to us not that he sent himself to us.

God the Father sent God the Son, so yes, God did dwell among man as a fellow human being for a period of time.

Mat_1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

God the Father sent God the Son, so yes, God did dwell among man as a fellow human being for a period of time.

Mat_1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

I understand what Emmanual means but i try to keep it in check with other scriptures which show us that Jesus was taught by God,and who can teach God anything so while i agree Jesus represented his father who is God when God sent him to earth that doesn't mean Jesus was God,I believe as the scriptures say that Jesus is the son of God,not God the son which phrase i have never found in any scripture.In Phillippians 2:5,6 the scriptures tell us that Jesus would not grasp at any kind of thought that he was equal to God and there are many other scriptures that i believe prove that Jesus was not God.Like John 17:3 which Jesus clearly shows he did not consider himself to be the only true God

 

[Mediate3]

I'll debate you.

 

[gadar perets]

Yes that is what I'm looking for, someone who believe in the bible. Eg, a Mormon or Jehovah witness. My apology, I should have been more clear.

I believe in the Bible, but not the "deity of Christ". I am not a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness. I am, however, a disciple of Messiah Yeshua, the Son of YHWH. I am open for a debate whenever you are ready.