Debate challenge on the deity of Christ

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I never doubted it. I was just reading this morning that when the Pharisees said to Jesus that He was a blasphemer because he said to the paralytic "Your sins are forgiven." But He told them he did so for the purpose of showing them that He had the power to forgive sin on earth. Only deity could do that.
 
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Truly1999

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I would like to propose a debate in regards to the deity of Christ. I believe scripture is very clear that Jesus Christ is God in flesh. If you disagree, let me know and we will debate it.
I believe that during his days on Earth, Jesus developed as a boy, through the teenage angst, with similar wants and needs of a young man, the same carnal desires, and the same temptations as the average man. I believe he was a man with all the skills and physical attributes of a man, with the same hopes and dreams of a common man, the same mind as a man, the same physical limitations. Jesus was not superhuman. The ability to heal people was a gift from his heavenly Father. There was nothing stopping him from abusing those gifts, nothing to stop him from claiming that he was totally God. Instead Jesus praised his Father in heaven for the powers bestowed upon him. Jesus always pointed to our Father in heaven, who is the one to be glorified.

Although Jesus was sent to Earth by God. I believe that for the first 30 years of his life, Jesus lived as an ordinary man, leading a life as a carpenter, working hard, earning a living, like the rest of mankind. Then, one day, God called upon his son to step out in faith and take responsibility for his role as king of the Jews, to lead his people to redemption and salvation. I believe that God gave Jesus free will and independent thought, so that if he wanted to he could have continued leading a quiet life as a carpenter, to marry, have children, grow old and die a physical death and remain buried in the Earth.

However, Jesus gladly accepted his calling - praise God - and, as they say, the rest is history.

But, even during his ministry, I believe Jesus was totally man, who had doubts at times about who he was, who loved life to the full, and who didn't want to die. I believe that he believed his time on earth was preparation for an uprising amongst the Jews, to overthrow the Roman authorities and institute a reign on Earth. But Jesus submitted to the will of his Father and paid the ultimate price for us all.
 
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Isaiah55:6

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I believe that during his days on Earth, Jesus developed as a boy, through the teenage angst, with similar wants and needs of a young man, the same carnal desires, and the same temptations as the average man. I believe he was a man with all the skills and physical attributes of a man, with the same hopes and dreams of a common man, the same mind as a man, the same physical limitations. Jesus was not superhuman. The ability to heal people was a gift from his heavenly Father. There was nothing stopping him from abusing those gifts, nothing to stop him from claiming that he was totally God. Instead Jesus praised his Father in heaven for the powers bestowed upon him. Jesus always pointed to our Father in heaven, who is the one to be glorified.

I agree with most of this except you said he had 'carnal desires'. Can you please define that?

Although Jesus was sent to Earth by God. I believe that for the first 30 years of his life, Jesus lived as an ordinary man, leading a life as a carpenter, working hard, earning a living, like the rest of mankind. Then, one day, God called upon his son to step out in faith and take responsibility for his role as king of the Jews, to lead his people to redemption and salvation. I believe that God gave Jesus free will and independent thought, so that if he wanted to he could have continued leading a quiet life as a carpenter, to marry, have children, grow old and die a physical death and remain buried in the Earth.

For a proper understanding of who Jesus is, his two natures must be properly understood. Yes I agree with you Jesus was fully a man. However at the same time he was fully God. Jesus is one person with two natures. This is why He would grow in wisdom and stature (Luke 2:52) and yet know all things (John 21:17). He is the Divine Word that became flesh (John 1:1, 14) the creator of heaven and earth. This is called the Hypostatic Union. One man, two natures.

For eg)

As God he was worshiped, as man he worshiped the father.
As God he was called God, as man he was called a man.
He was called the son of God, and also son of man
As God he was prayed too, as man he prayed to the father.
As God he was sinless, as man he was tempted.
As God he knew all things, as man he grew in wisdom

The reason Jesus worshiped and served God the father was because in order for us to be saved from our sin, as a man Jesus had to keep the law perfectly. And part of keeping that law was to worship and serve God. If he didn't, then he would have broken the law and his sacrifice would have been of no value.


But, even during his ministry, I believe Jesus was totally man, who had doubts at times about who he was, who loved life to the full, and who didn't want to die. I believe that he believed his time on earth was preparation for an uprising amongst the Jews, to overthrow the Roman authorities and institute a reign on Earth. But Jesus submitted to the will of his Father and paid the ultimate price for us all.

Here is where we start drifting apart. Jesus fully knew he was God in flesh. He made the claim himself that he was the eternal God. When he said " before Abraham was born I'am". He took here the divine name of God stated to Moses " tell them I'am has sent you".

Besides that I agree with alot of what you said. I have no doubt he was fully man. But at the same time he was fully God. The word was God and the word that was God became a man. (John 1:1, 1:14)
 
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Truly1999

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I agree with most of this except you said he had 'carnal desires'. Can you please define that?



For a proper understanding of who Jesus is, his two natures must be properly understood. Yes I agree with you Jesus was fully a man. However at the same time he was fully God. Jesus is one person with two natures. This is why He would grow in wisdom and stature (Luke 2:52) and yet know all things (John 21:17). He is the Divine Word that became flesh (John 1:1, 14) the creator of heaven and earth. This is called the Hypostatic Union. One man, two natures.

For eg)

As God he was worshiped, as man he worshiped the father.
As God he was called God, as man he was called a man.
He was called the son of God, and also son of man
As God he was prayed too, as man he prayed to the father.
As God he was sinless, as man he was tempted.
As God he knew all things, as man he grew in wisdom

The reason Jesus worshiped and served God the father was because in order for us to be saved from our sin, as a man Jesus had to keep the law perfectly. And part of keeping that law was to worship and serve God. If he didn't, then he would have broken the law and his sacrifice would have been of no value.




Here is where we start drifting apart. Jesus fully knew he was God in flesh. He made the claim himself that he was the eternal God. When he said " before Abraham was born I'am". He took here the divine name of God stated to Moses " tell them I'am has sent you".

Besides that I agree with alot of what you said. I have no doubt he was fully man. But at the same time he was fully God. The word was God and the word that was God became a man. (John 1:1, 1:14)
To be "fully man" Jesus would have had a sex drive. Indeed, Jesus was tempted in all ways - but did not sin. Women were attracted to him and you can see in the gospels that he had a close relationship with one or two women.
 
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Isaiah55:6

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To be "fully man" Jesus would have had a sex drive. Indeed, Jesus was tempted in all ways - but did not sin. Women were attracted to him and you can see in the gospels that he had a close relationship with one or two women.


With Jesus being the creator off all things including woman I would have to think he looks at woman like we would look at our own daughters. There would be no sexual attraction at all. And besides that, how could a man have sexual desires and not lust? Jesus was born without a sinful nature. Most theologians agree that the sinful nature we inherit comes from the father. That's why Jesus was of a virgin, so that the sinful nature was not passed on to Christ. If Jesus looked at all other woman like his own daughters and had no sexual desires that wouldn't make him any less 'fully man'.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I would like to propose a debate in regards to the deity of Christ. I believe scripture is very clear that Jesus Christ is God in flesh. If you disagree, let me know and we will debate it.


What exactly were you hoping to debate? That the bible (NT) claims Jesus is god?...Or that Jesus actually is god?

Those are two different topics and I'm not sure if it's clear which one you want to debate.
 
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Isaiah55:6

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What exactly were you hoping to debate? That the bible (NT) claims Jesus is god?...Or that Jesus actually is god?

Those are two different topics and I'm not sure if it's clear which one you want to debate.

His deity in general. That he is God in flesh and should be worshiped as God for he is God.
 
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Truly1999

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With Jesus being the creator off all things including woman I would have to think he looks at woman like we would look at our own daughters. There would be no sexual attraction at all. And besides that, how could a man have sexual desires and not lust? Jesus was born without a sinful nature. Most theologians agree that the sinful nature we inherit comes from the father. That's why Jesus was of a virgin, so that the sinful nature was not passed on to Christ. If Jesus looked at all other woman like his own daughters and had no sexual desires that wouldn't make him any less 'fully man'.
Please, do not be naive. Unfortunately, there are some aspects of the life of Jesus which have been hidden from many Christians by the Church. However, these aspects can be clearly seen in the gospels, not through trickery, but simply by approaching from a particular perspective, and often even simpler than that.

But the Church has blinded many Christians into believing what it wants them to believe, through careful control of the teaching of the gospels. The Church regretted the day when English and not Latin was used in church services because then people could interpret the gospels for themselves.

Speaking only certain verses in conjunction with other verses over a period of months, avoiding other verses which could put things in a different light, choosing some themes and avoiding other themes, is how the Church manipulates and controls the minds of its followers. Careful selection of individuals - ranging from the housebound leader, to the deacon, priest and bishop ensures that the truth is controlled and given in terms which do not undermine but rather strengthen the authority of the Church.

Our concept of Jesus is largely determined by the Church - in Sunday school, in Sunday sermons, in housebound meetings. The people are treated like children who have to be taught everything because wisdom comes down from the Archbishop to the Bishop and to the priest. The Church does not believe - or at least wants us to believe - that individual Christians cannot ask for, nor receive, divine wisdom.

We are given a false impression of Jesus - we are brainwashed by the Church to believe it's version. We put the deity of Jesus above the deity of God.
 
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His deity in general. That he is God in flesh and should be worshiped as God for he is God.


That sounds like a really ambitious position to debate. If you really think you're up for advocating that position...I'll gladly argue against it.

Since you're taking the affirmative position, I assume you have no problem going first?
 
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Isaiah55:6

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That sounds like a really ambitious position to debate. If you really think you're up for advocating that position...I'll gladly argue against it.

Since you're taking the affirmative position, I assume you have no problem going first?

Sure. I won't go writing every reason for my position all in one post. I would rather tackle one thing at a time so things don't get missed. So here goes...

Jesus Christ is the eternal God and creator who came to us dressed in flesh. As a member of the Trinity, He always existed. Father, Son (The Word), Holy Spirit. There never was a time when He did not exist. He is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and the Spirit.

(Gen 1:1) In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Who created the heavens & the earth? God did!)

(John 1:1) "In the beginning was the word. The word was with God, and the word was God"

(John 1:2) "He was in the beginning with God."

(John 1:3) "All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

Gen 1:1 says God created the heavens and the earth. John says it was the word who is God that created all things. So logically the word who is God and became flesh, is God in flesh. He was worshipped, prayed too and is himself the eternal God in flesh and will always be the man Jesus Christ for the rest of eternity.
 
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redleghunter

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Sure. I won't go writing every reason for my position all in one post. I would rather tackle one thing at a time so things don't get missed. So here goes...

Jesus Christ is the eternal God and creator who came to us dressed in flesh. As a member of the Trinity, He always existed. Father, Son (The Word), Holy Spirit. There never was a time when He did not exist. He is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and the Spirit.

(Gen 1:1) In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Who created the heavens & the earth? God did!)

(John 1:1) "In the beginning was the word. The word was with God, and the word was God"

(John 1:2) "He was in the beginning with God."

(John 1:3) "All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

Gen 1:1 says God created the heavens and the earth. John says it was the word who is God that created all things. So logically the word who is God and became flesh, is God in flesh. He was worshipped, prayed too and is himself the eternal God in flesh and will always be the man Jesus Christ for the rest of eternity.

Probably best if you debated the Deity of Christ Jesus with someone who actually believes in God in some form. AKA a Deist. An atheist or anti-theist will just give you a list of Biblical grievances and demand you don't use the Bible.
 
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Isaiah55:6

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Probably best if you debated the Deity of Christ Jesus with someone who actually believes in God in some form. AKA a Deist. An atheist or anti-theist will just give you a list of Biblical grievances and demand you don't use the Bible.

Yes that is what I'm looking for, someone who believe in the bible. Eg, a Mormon or Jehovah witness. My apology, I should have been more clear.
 
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redleghunter

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Yes that is what I'm looking for, someone who believe in the bible. Eg, a Mormon or Jehovah witness. My apology, I should have been more clear.

Just my two cents but @Truly1999 I believe would be a good position to address. I believe he does not accept your view that Jesus of Nazareth was truly God and truly human at birth, but only human, or limited divine attributes. If I am not mistaken this is the kenosis theory.

Again just my two cents. Both you and @Truly1999 are both Christians and that makes sense.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Sure. I won't go writing every reason for my position all in one post. I would rather tackle one thing at a time so things don't get missed. So here goes...

Jesus Christ is the eternal God and creator who came to us dressed in flesh. As a member of the Trinity, He always existed. Father, Son (The Word), Holy Spirit. There never was a time when He did not exist. He is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and the Spirit.

(Gen 1:1) In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Who created the heavens & the earth? God did!)

(John 1:1) "In the beginning was the word. The word was with God, and the word was God"

(John 1:2) "He was in the beginning with God."

(John 1:3) "All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

Gen 1:1 says God created the heavens and the earth. John says it was the word who is God that created all things. So logically the word who is God and became flesh, is God in flesh. He was worshipped, prayed too and is himself the eternal God in flesh and will always be the man Jesus Christ for the rest of eternity.

You don't actually hold the debate in this thread...you simply form the proposal for the debate. Like this...

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/no-historical-jesus.7912612/

Once you have the debate outlined, a moderator will set up the debate thread for you.
 
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Isaiah55:6

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Ana the Ist

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Ahh ok, I'm still pretty new to christian forums. Sounds kinda complicated, maybe I will hold of till Christmas is over and I'll have more time to commit.

Probably a good idea...

I am an atheist btw. I didn't realize you were looking to debate another christian for this topic...but if you end up unable to find one, I'll be glad to debate you.
 
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newnature22

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Here is Yahweh's nature in actions, remember the context of this story and how it ended in Mount Sinai - Exodus 3:13-14 - Moses said to God, “When I come to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?” And God said to Moses, “Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh.” He continued, “Thus shall you say to the Israelites, ‘Ehyeh sent me to you.’ ”

Not having been raised among his own people, Moses is ignorant of their God’s name and fears he will lack credibility with the Israelites. God’s proper name, disclosed in the verse 15, is YHVH (spelled “yod-heh-vav-heh” in Hebrew; in ancient times the “vav” was pronounced “w”). But here God first tells Moses its meaning: “I Will Be What I Will Be,” meaning “My nature will become evident from my actions.”

Then God answers Moses’ question about what to say to the people: “Tell them: ‘Ehyeh’ (“I Will Be,” a shorter form of the explanation) sent me.” This explanation derives God’s name from the verb “h-v-h,” a variant form of “h-y-h,” “to be.” Because God is the speaker, he uses the first person form of the verb. You cannot no longer quoit I AM according to your three-in-one god doctrine?
 
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newnature22

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One more thought, the concept of Yeshua as the suffering servant of Yahweh in Isaiah. That concept has no place in the context of Isaiah, particularly in chapter 53 (Israel was the suffering servant of Yahweh).

There have been many attempts to equate this man of sorrows with all kinds of figures. Early on, Yeshua’s followers saw Yeshua as the suffering servant of Yahweh in Isaiah. New Testament writers specifically borrowed passages from Isaiah, particularly in chapter 53, when constructing their narratives of Yeshua, taking those verses and using them in describing his story.

So Yeshua is depicted as the innocent and righteous servant who suffered for the sins of others. In the teachings of Paul, however, you have a different use of these verses. Christians, generally, are identified as the servant who suffers with and for Yeshua. Isaiah chapter 53 wasn’t talking about a remote Nazarene teacher and charismatic healer who would live more than five centuries later.

The servant is Israel herself, the punishment that Israel suffered even if excessive-that punishment isn’t meaningless, it will lead to redemption. Israel will be healed by her wounds. Israel’s suffering is serving a purpose in the divine plan, it’s necessary. Israel needs purification and redemption and that will prepare her for a new role in world history. Remember I have context and Israel's history on my side?
 
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