debate cessationism with me

[hawk]

Cessationism refers to the belief that miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit such as healing, tongues, and prophecy passed away or ceased at the close of the apostolic age.  I have studied cessationism and I believe it does not accurately reflect New Testament teaching on spiritual gifts. 

Does anybody care to discuss/debate this topic?

peace in him

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by hawk
Cessationism refers to the belief that miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit such as healing, tongues, and prophecy passed away or ceased at the close of the apostolic age.  I have studied cessationism and I believe it does not accurately reflect New Testament teaching on spiritual gifts. 

Does anybody care to discuss/debate this topic?

peace in him

Well . . .since I read about it in the Bible and I go to a church where all the above mentioned pretty routinely happens, how can I not believe!  

 

[Apologist]

Originally posted by hawk
Cessationism refers to the belief that miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit such as healing, tongues, and prophecy passed away or ceased at the close of the apostolic age.  I have studied cessationism and I believe it does not accurately reflect New Testament teaching on spiritual gifts. 

Does anybody care to discuss/debate this topic?

peace in him

I answered "Maybe miraculous gifts are for today, but only rarely under unusual circumstances" because that is the only truthful answer in my opinion.

God Bless

 

[Andrew]

I voted one cause it's plain obvious in the sciptures and in the churches.

 

[dignitized]

Having experienced a miracle myself, how could I answer aught but that miracles are for today also? Let us not forget that a Salvation experience is also a miracle - albeit the GREATEST of all

 

[hawk]

My whole thing is that cessationism is nowhere in the Bible.  When we read the Bible, cessationism is not a natural inference to make.  It is as Jack Deere put it:

 

No one ever just picked up the Bible, started reading, and then came to the conclusion that God was not doing signs and wonders anymore and that the gifts of the Holy Spirit had passed away. The doctrine of cessationism did not originate in a careful study of the Scriptures. The doctrine of cessationism originated in <I>experience</I>. -Jack Deere

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Br. Max
Having experienced a miracle myself, how could I answer aught but that miracles are for today also? Let us not forget that a Salvation experience is also a miracle - albeit the GREATEST of all

AMEN Bro Max&nbsp;

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by hawk
My whole thing is that cessationism is nowhere in the Bible.&nbsp; When we read the Bible, cessationism is not a natural inference to make.&nbsp; It is as Jack Deere put it:

&nbsp;

No one ever just picked up the Bible, started reading, and then came to the conclusion that God was not doing signs and wonders anymore and that the gifts of the Holy Spirit had passed away. The doctrine of cessationism did not originate in a careful study of the Scriptures. The doctrine of cessationism originated in <I>experience</I>. -Jack Deere

This is so true.&nbsp; Some have concluded that since they have not experienced it then it does not happen.&nbsp;

So technically, by their experience of no experience, no one should have an experience, because that has to mean that something is wrong.&nbsp; And it could'nt possibly be with&nbsp;them . . .the one's with no experience.&nbsp;

If the Bible says something is supposed to happen, then it's supposed to happen.&nbsp; If it doesn't, well, I believe God anyway.&nbsp;

The Bible says, blessed are those who believe without seeing.&nbsp; I have seen a lot, but what I have not seen, if the Bible says it, I still choose to believe it.

 

[hawk]

cool signature by the way quaffer

 

[dignitized]

The problem with believing in miracles is that there are way too many people out there that are either frauds and sham artists or take things to the extremes. Yes “I believe in Miracles” - like the book by Katheryn Coleman , but I do not believe in the “word of faith” movement.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by hawk
cool signature by the way quaffer

Thanks hawk.&nbsp; Welcome to the forums.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Br. Max
The problem with believing in miracles is that there are way too many people out there that are either frauds and sham artists or take things to the extremes. Yes “I believe in Miracles” - like the book by Katheryn Coleman , but I do not believe in the “word of faith” movement.

You're right Br Max, however that is not a reason for anyone to&nbsp; not believe what God says.&nbsp;&nbsp;I believe the term "word of faith" is greatly misunderstood.

I'm reminded of that movie "Far and Away" (I think), with Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman.&nbsp; Anyway, at the end they were claiming land.&nbsp; The government had spelled out for all the people gathered there where the boundries were and&nbsp;what they had to do to claim their piece of land.&nbsp; They had to race to the spot they wanted and then get their claim stick(whatever it's called ) into the ground before anyone else.&nbsp; When they did that the land&nbsp;was theirs.

That's kinda the same way with God.&nbsp; He's spelled out the boundries for us.&nbsp;&nbsp;Spiritually, physically, and emotionally we have&nbsp;promises made to us by God&nbsp;Himself.&nbsp; He promises salvation to all who call upon&nbsp;the name of the Lord.&nbsp;&nbsp;That's a claim He made, so&nbsp;therefore I have the right to claim it too.

He promises healing to all who pray the prayer of faith.&nbsp; He made the claim, so therefore I have the right to claim it too.

He promises to make me whole (spiritually, physically, emotionally), therefore, I have the right to claim it too.

He does&nbsp;NOT promise me an expensive&nbsp;car.&nbsp; He does&nbsp;NOT promise me a mansion here on&nbsp;earth.&nbsp; So while I may desire them, I can ask but I&nbsp;would not claim it in the same way that I&nbsp;claim healing (physically, spiritually, and emotionally).&nbsp;

Jesus paid the full price for my salvation on the cross.&nbsp; He died so that I could have life, not only in Heaven but here on earth.&nbsp; And it said it was for an "abundant life".&nbsp; Not one of spiritual sickness, physical sickness, or mental sickness.

I may not see my healing here on earth but I will at least die believing.

Kathryn Kuhlman was a great woman of God.&nbsp; I had the priviledge of attending one of her services at the Shrine in Los Angeles.&nbsp; Yes, there were many problems in her life, but there are many problems in all of our lives.&nbsp; And we need to allow God to work through us in spite of those problems, just as she did.

Be blessed Bro Max.&nbsp; I read a lot of your post and enjoy them.&nbsp;

Quaffer

 

[SUNSTONE]

I have seen so many healings, and perhaps miracles(because they are different).

Just go in answered prayers for some of the many I have seen and done, by the grace of God, through faith. I think that the Lord is guiding me into casting out demons now, but I haven't done one yet.

If you have the gift of teaching, how can you dismiss the other gifts as well. Prophecy, healings, tongues, miracles, and so on. Paul even said to desire spiritual gifts, especially so that you may prophecy.

When I talk to people about what they would like to do in a ministry, they say preach. I myself don't want to be a preacher, I saw that scripture, and I prayed that I would be a prophet. Prophet Sunstone that has a nice ring to it.

But that is up to God, and right now I am still a disciple, with much to learn.

 

[dignitized]

quaffer: Yes God can and will heal, but let us not forget that suffering is not only good for the soul, but profitable to the spirit Some times God does not heal. He does so for His own reasons. At times, he wants us to seek Him more, at other times he is waiting for the proper moment, still other times, he does not heal because the affliction is working to his glory. I have seen people destroyed because some word of faith healer told them that they did not have enough faith to get healed.

 

[Apologist]

Originally posted by SUNSTONE


When I talk to people about what they would like to do in a ministry, they say preach. I myself don't want to be a preacher, I saw that scripture, and I prayed that I would be a prophet. Prophet Sunstone that has a nice ring to it.

Sunstone,

To prophecy IS to preach.

 

[Apologist]

Originally posted by Br. Max
quaffer: Yes God can and will heal, but let us not forget that suffering is not only good for the soul, but profitable to the spirit Some times God does not heal. He does so for His own reasons. At times, he wants us to seek Him more, at other times he is waiting for the proper moment, still other times, he does not heal because the affliction is working to his glory. I have seen people destroyed because some word of faith healer told them that they did not have enough faith to get healed.

Very good points Br. Max.

I heard a girl call into the Bible Answer Man broadcast today who almost died because of the WoF teachings she was caught up in.
She went to a crusade and was "healed" of her diabetes she was told.
Quite some time later she went to her doctor and was told that her pancreas was not working at all and if she didn't use her insulin she would die. It breaks my heart to hear that people are duped like this.

God Bless

 

[Andrew]

Yes God can and will heal, but let us not forget that suffering is not only good for the soul, but profitable to the spirit

I think that is one of the main misunderstandings regarding WOF. Suffering for the Christian. People think that WOF people dont believe in suffering. we do, but we believe in the Biblical NT type of suffering -- ie persecution for bearing the name of Jesus. not sickness, that's not in God's will.

read Peter and Paul's description of their sufferings and what they teach abt suffering -- it always has to do with persecution for being a Christian and preaching the gospel. nothing to do with sickness.

To prophecy IS to preach.

Then why did the Holy Spirit Bible use 2 diff words if its one and the same thing?

 

[Andrew]

I heard a girl call into the Bible Answer Man broadcast today who almost died because of the WoF teachings she was caught up in.
She went to a crusade and was "healed" of her diabetes she was told.
Quite some time later she went to her doctor and was told that her pancreas was not working at all and if she didn't use her insulin she would die. It breaks my heart to hear that people are duped like this.

no preacher will tell the person to stop medication. that's illegal cos you are then practising medicine without a licence. they wld always tell you to continue taking your medication and going to your docs until he certifies you cured! so in a sense it is the girls own foolishness. no healing evangelist I know tells you to go off medicine just like that. that's dumb.

 

[Apologist]

Originally posted by Andrew
I think that is one of the main misunderstandings regarding WOF. Suffering for the Christian. People think that WOF people dont believe in suffering. we do, but we believe in the Biblical NT type of suffering -- ie persecution for bearing the name of Jesus. not sickness, that's not in God's will.

read Peter and Paul's description of their sufferings and what they teach abt suffering -- it always has to do with persecution for being a Christian and preaching the gospel. nothing to do with sickness.

That is not what scripture teaches. Nowhere does the bible declare that sickness is not God's will. In 2 Tim 4:19-20 Paul states:

"Greet Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus. 20 Erastus stayed in Corinth, but Trophimus I have left in Miletus sick."

Why did Paul leave Miletus sick? Couldn't Paul have easily healed him?

As I stated in another post that WoF proponents disagree with: It depends on whether it is God's will for us to be sick, healthy, poor, rich, etc.

We need to pray as Jesus did: "Thy will be done" and not "My will be done."

Then why did the Holy Spirit Bible use 2 diff words if its one and the same thing?

You misunderstand me. The word 'Prophecy' can mean to foretell as well as forthtell. It depends on the context.

 

[Andrew]

That is not what scripture teaches. Nowhere does the bible declare that sickness is not God's will.

Why in the world wld Christ take on our pains and sicknesses if God wanted some of us sick (Isa 53:4)?? Why in the world wld God annoint Jesus to heal the sick if it was also God's will for people to be sick?? Why in the world did Jesus heal all the sick who came to him in faith if it was God's will to make some sick? Why is the world is one of God's redemptive names I AM THE LORD THAT HEALETH THEE when he is supposed to be I am the Lord who makes you sick at the same time???

In 2 Tim 4:19-20 Paul states:"Greet Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus. 20 Erastus stayed in Corinth, but Trophimus I have left in Miletus sick."

o please. if I say, :"my wife cant come to church tonite bcos she's sick at home, so i left her sick at home". Do you then go on to preach a doctrine that says God wants people sick???

You misunderstand me. The word 'Prophecy' can mean to foretell as well as forthtell.

BY THE INSPIRATION of the Holy Spirit unto comfort, exhortation and edification. so its not preaching.

We need to pray as Jesus did: "Thy will be done" and not "My will be done."

EXACTLY what WOF is all abt! Find out what is God's will revealed in the Word {WORD}. Then line up your prayers, words and actions with God's will {FAITH IN ACTION}.

so the problem for you is that you need to first see that healing is God's will, and you need to see it in the Word, dont wait for an angel to split your ceiling and come down to tell you. even if he did, he'd just quote to you from the Word.