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Death Penalty

Photonfanatic

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I see. You do realize that in a way that justifies what the Jews went through in WW2. Afterall, they were judged (in a sense) for an apparent crime in Germany (not being of Aryan blood).

I am not saying it was right what they went through, but what is missed is for every argument you are so generalized on, people can and may come back to something as arcane as that.

So let me ask you- a man and woman are convicted of a serious crime against their children. They lose the appeals and are executed. Turns out, years later, that they really were innocent, and they are posthumously exonerated. The details that come out show the prosecution withheld evidence that would have cleared them and shown who the true criminal is.
So with that said, what would you do then? Is it accidental or is it murder? Would you then seek the DP for the former prosecution or would you let it go on the premise of "it was years ago"?

Not even a little bit. If Hitler wanted to be "nice", he could have just expelled all jews from Germany. Not killed a single one, but rather said "You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here." And he would not be looked on for the madman that he is today. Would that have been unkind? Sure. But hey, its a whole lot better than what actually happened to them. So I'm afraid your comparison is flawed. Also, you accuse me of being general, and then you go so far as to ask "what if". What if the sky fell? What exactly were these parents accused of, and what were the circumstances? Your little example is quite general indeed.

I'm not being general, I'm being simple. You're tried, if you get convicted, you get executed. Simple. No dragging it out for 17 years, no waste of a boatload of money. No justice delayed. I even allowed two more years for all legal stuff to get finished. Such as an appeals that is successful. Or isn't successful. Either way.


If we could be absolutely sure it was just the guilty that were executed fine, but we know that innocent people have been executed as well.

Too bad. Of course that's awful. But lets see, according to some very quick google research, less than .01% of all persons in the US executed after 1921 were later proven innocent. So basically, because there is an microscopic margin of error, you want to do away with a society's last ditch effort to rid itself of something that is trying to destroy it. Nice. By that standard, I wouldn't drive your car to work. Its much too dangerous.
 
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Cactus Jack

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Not even a little bit. If Hitler wanted to be "nice", he could have just expelled all jews from Germany. Not killed a single one, but rather said "You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here." And he would not be looked on for the madman that he is today. Would that have been unkind? Sure. But hey, its a whole lot better than what actually happened to them. So I'm afraid your comparison is flawed. Also, you accuse me of being general, and then you go so far as to ask "what if". What if the sky fell? What exactly were these parents accused of, and what were the circumstances? Your little example is quite general indeed.
Actually, one of the original plans were to do a forced relation not a a concentration camp, but to Madagascar. Yes, no joke. Does anyone talk about it? No, because Hitler is dead and so to them it's a moot issue. He's dead and not gonna have a fuss over the mis-characterization of him.

The concentration camp gig was his last resort. But not like it matters now.
 
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HermanNeutics13

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Too bad. Of course that's awful. But lets see, according to some very quick google research, less than .01% of all persons in the US executed after 1921 were later proven innocent. So basically, because there is an microscopic margin of error, you want to do away with a society's last ditch effort to rid itself of something that is trying to destroy it. Nice. By that standard, I wouldn't drive your car to work. Its much too dangerous.[/QUOTE]

We can't know for sure the exact number it is very likely higher than any number we have listed as that is only the people we know now were innocent there are some we even don't know. The difference in the car scenario is it is not a direct intentional action with the purpose to kill. I live by Blackstone's formula, however I don't even say they must go free, life in prison still is punishment and can be reversed if innocence is later found.
 
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GenetoJean

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Too bad. Of course that's awful. But lets see, according to some very quick google research, less than .01% of all persons in the US executed after 1921 were later proven innocent. So basically, because there is an microscopic margin of error, you want to do away with a society's last ditch effort to rid itself of something that is trying to destroy it. Nice. By that standard, I wouldn't drive your car to work. Its much too dangerous.

It doesnt matter if it was .00000001%, that is still too many. They can be locked away for life and then the percentage would be 0%.
 
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Cactus Jack

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If one innocent person is executed, that is one too many. History has shown some of our finest legislators feel the same way, IIRC in one case preferring to letting 9 criminal go if it means saving the one innocent person. But that was then and this is now and people simply do not care anymore, until it is them on the gallows.

Why is this thread still dragging on?
Because of fine freedom loving Christians such as yourself that abhor the taking of innocent lives through surreptitious means. :thumbsup:
 
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gungasnake

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So what are your thoughts? Should we as Christians support this?
Should we as Christians work to stop this?
why?

As a general rule I cannot support a death penalty in America at this point in time; too many ways it resembles giving the Ronnie Earles, Janet Renos, Scott Harshbargers, Martha Coakleys, and Mike Nifongs of the world a license to kill people.

In theory at least I've got nothing against hanging somebody like Manson, Dennis Rader, Paul Bernardo, John Mohammed...

Here's the problem: I'd want several changes to the system before I could feel good about capital punishment anymore.


1. Guilt should be beyond any doubt whatsoever; the usual criteria of guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt" doesn't cut it for hanging somebody.

2. The person in question must represent a continuing threat to society should he ever escape or otherwise get loose. The "bird man" of Alcatraz would not qualify, John Mohammed clearly would.

3. I'd want all career/money incentives for convicting people of crimes gone which would mean scrapping the present "adversarial" system of justice in favor of something like the French "inquisitorial" system in which the common objective of all parties involved was a determination of facts.

4. I'd want there to be no societal benefit to keeping the person alive. Cases in which this criteria would prevent hanging somebody would include "Son of Sam" who we probably should want to study more than hang, or Timothy McVeigh who clearly knew more than the public ever was allowed to hear.

Given all of that I could feel very good about hanging Charles Manson, John Muhammed, or Paul Bernardo, but that's about what it would take.

In fact in a totally rational world the job of District Attorney as it is known in America would not exist. NOBODY should ever have any sort of a career or money incentive for sending people to prison, much less for executing people. The job of District Attorney in America seems to involve almost limitless power and very little resembling accountability and granted there is no shortage of good people who hold the job, the combination has to attract the wrong kinds of people as well.

They expected DNA testing to eliminate the prime suspect in felony cases in something like one or two percent of cases and many people were in states of shock when that number came back more like 33 or 35%. That translates into some fabulous number of people sitting around in prisons for stuff they don't know anything at all about since the prime suspect in a felony case usually goes to prison. Moreover, in a state like Texas which executes a hundred people a year or thereabouts, that has to translate into innocent people being executed here and there.

But the kicker is the adversarial system of justice. THAT we'd need to get rid of, with or without any consideration of death penalties. The price we're paying for it is too high.
 
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HermanNeutics13

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Oh and if I may add another quote. "Many that live deserve death, some that die deserve life, can you give it to them. Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement for even the very wise canoe see all ends"-Gandalf.
 
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edens

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So what are your thoughts? Should we as Christians support this?
Should we as Christians work to stop this?
why?

I would first do some experiments or overhauls on the penal system. For one I think it's a horrible idea for inmates to be put together. They should be separated so they can think for themselves and not have to worry about being weak.

General population never seems to work - Each inmate should be working to somehow pay something back to society.

I think though for myself if I murdered someone in cold blood and there was overwhelming evidence I believe I should be taken off this planet.
 
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Cactus Jack

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Or you can look at two important cases today. One is the Arizona prisoner that was executed and it took almost two hours and 15 injections to get the job done. In another the man was executed, but it turns out, just as I have been saying all along, the prosecution withheld evidence.

Ok, so did Wood (in AZ) deserve it? 144 minutes to die, and 600+ gasps.
Then Willingham (in TX) is recently found to be...innocent. Some good that does him- he's dead.

So what does one do in a case like that? What if Wood turns out to be innocent? It can happen. Be it Wood or Willingham, what would you call it if they are found innocent after the execution? How do you compensate the victim then? The victim is dead.

You or I do that and it's murder. State does it and it's "opps. My bad." Am I the only one that sees a problem here?
 
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Midst

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So what are your thoughts? Should we as Christians support this?
Should we as Christians work to stop this?
why?

Depends on what God puts on your heart, as far as work goes.

To a certain degree, Christians have responsibility to respect any authority, but I do believe it is quite clear that death penalties are not part of the ultimate gameplan for the Body of Christ -- consider death is the last enemy, and Jesus will conquer it. Right now, everyone is facing their own death penalty even if some are saved.

I suppose here you are talking about the US, and on this matter it is quite clear that the US has a barbaric prison system, system of punishment, and system of providing death penalties which contrasted with many other nations is clear that it is the barbaric way. Christ is not barbaric.
 
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AgapeBible

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What about the mentally ill who kill people because of delusions, hallucinations, and paranoia? What if a mentally ill person thinks somebody has done something terrible to them, and they kill them, or they think they have to kill in self defense? We need better mental health care in this country. Bring back mental hospitals and lock up people before they get the chance to hurt themselves or someone else. Mental hospitals should be pleasant and have a healing atmosphere. They should have artwork on the walls, comfortable beds, and gardens, with no poisonous or drug-like plants. There was a case of a man who brutally raped and murdered a young wife and mother in my community, he was mentally ill but he was sentenced to death anyway. I felt sorry for that guy, but of course even sorrier for the young lady he killed. This guy let Satan win.


We need to prevent crimes before they happen. Change the culture. Violence is popular in American culture. Video games and movies are very violent. Stop the violence.
 
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