Death before the Fall

[Benoni]

It's will of God, that was opening mouth of Peter, " But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away." Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you that this very night, before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times."
Peter said to Him, "Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You." All the disciples said the same thing too."
The same way, bud, you believe in illusion called "free will", instead
giving all Glory to the Lord, for your entire existence.
You are making choices for Him, your existence is His plan,

not yours.
You are throwing hissy fit, and taking me, on a "marry go round",
because you can't grasp concept, of English language being
imperfect ?


Before English language was created, Lie was everything that
isn't the truth. Now UK and US are telling only the truth, to
the World, because their intent is not to deceive, but, to rule
the World. It's a wonderful English World.

bunk

 

[juvenissun]

I believe that Adam and Eve lived in a spiritual "world" before the fall. where there was no death. When Adam sinned against God he died to that world, as God said he would. Death entered Eden at that point and I believe that Adam fell to our physical Earth to live out his life for another 930 years, when he died finally as we will one day.

I believe that death entered our world the moment God commanded the water to bring forth life. The water (mayim) was a type of primordial soup created in the half spirit half physical place that was Satans original prison. As the by product of sin our world was created from imperfection yet God loved it at each stage of Creation.

I like to resume the discussion of the original question from here.

A spiritual world or not, we know Adam needs to eat. When Adam pulled up a vegie and did not eat it immediately, would he sense the "death" of that plant later on?

I like to explore the meaning on the death (the end) of vegetation. It it is not counted as a death, then the definition of death would be in question. If the death of a tree (or a grass) is not death, then why should the death of a dog be taken as a death? Dog has a soul. OK, so what? A dog is not going to the Heaven anyway.

 

[cleminson]

I like to resume the discussion of the original question from here.

A spiritual world or not, we know Adam needs to eat. When Adam pulled up a vegie and did not eat it immediately, would he sense the "death" of that plant later on?

I like to explore the meaning on the death (the end) of vegetation. It it is not counted as a death, then the definition of death would be in question. If the death of a tree (or a grass) is not death, then why should the death of a dog be taken as a death? Dog has a soul. OK, so what? A dog is not going to the Heaven anyway.

They say great minds think alike. I have been pondering this one all Easter. Adam was allowed to eat of any fruit in the Garden, just not the fruit of the tree of KoGaE. Does that mean that there was death of vegetation before Adam fell? Did he digest the food and for that matter did he go to the toilet in the Garden?
I think that this strengthens my theory that Eden was a spiritual place and that the tending of the Garden that Adam had to do and the eating of the fruit there, was some sort of "picture" of the real Earth that was being created, on a lower "plain", our reality.
Maybe we should start a new Thread on this one because I have had an exciting w/e looking at this?

 

[juvenissun]

They say great minds think alike. I have been pondering this one all Easter. Adam was allowed to eat of any fruit in the Garden, just not the fruit of the tree of KoGaE. Does that mean that there was death of vegetation before Adam fell? Did he digest the food and for that matter did he go to the toilet in the Garden?
I think that this strengthens my theory that Eden was a spiritual place and that the tending of the Garden that Adam had to do and the eating of the fruit there, was some sort of "picture" of the real Earth that was being created, on a lower "plain", our reality.
Maybe we should start a new Thread on this one because I have had an exciting w/e looking at this?

In fact, I have a more basic question:

Why does God set up the Garden of Eden? What would be missing if there were no Eden?

Yes, Cleminson, if you started another thread, I will go there.

 

[Assyrian]

What would be missing if there were no Eden?

What would be missing? The promise of everlasting life Luke 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

 

[juvenissun]

What would be missing? The promise of everlasting life Luke 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

This is new to me. I don't know how to argue for or against it, but I will take a note. But, could you elaborate this possibility a little more?

So, according to you, there are A LOT of people in Eden now. This does not sound right to me. Eden is NOT Heaven, right? So is it a place like a rest stop? I don't think so. It still has the tree of life in there. People could eat it prematurely.

No, no. God says that the door of Eden is "closed" after Adam. He never say people could trickle in at later time. I think the purpose of Eden has been fulfilled. We do not need the Garden of Eden any more.

So it goes back to my question, what was the purpose of Eden?

 

[juvenissun]

What would be missing? The promise of everlasting life Luke 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

This is new to me. I don't know how to argue for or against it, but I will take a note. But, could you elaborate this possibility a little more?

So, according to you, there are A LOT of people in Eden now. This does not sound right to me. Eden is NOT Heaven, right? So is it a place like a rest stop? I don't think so. It still has the tree of life in there. People could eat it prematurely.

No, no. God says that the door of Eden is "closed" after Adam. He never say people could trickle in at later time. I think the purpose of Eden has been fulfilled. We do not need the Garden of Eden any more.

So it goes back to my question, what was the purpose of Eden?

 

[cleminson]

What would be missing? The promise of everlasting life Luke 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

Hear Hear Assyrian.

 

[cleminson]

This is new to me. I don't know how to argue for or against it, but I will take a note. But, could you elaborate this possibility a little more?

So, according to you, there are A LOT of people in Eden now. This does not sound right to me. Eden is NOT Heaven, right? So is it a place like a rest stop? I don't think so. It still has the tree of life in there. People could eat it prematurely.

No, no. God says that the door of Eden is "closed" after Adam. He never say people could trickle in at later time. I think the purpose of Eden has been fulfilled. We do not need the Garden of Eden any more.

So it goes back to my question, what was the purpose of Eden?

Paradise was Eden and is a spiritual destination for us Christians. Yes there are many souls in Paradise and it was only the fallen Adam in his human form that could not get into heaven. Nor can we in our physical form but when we leave our physical bodies, we can enter Paradise. That is why Jesus died on the Cross, to cancel Adam's death. and give us back his original Life.

 

[juvenissun]

Paradise was Eden and is a spiritual destination for us Christians. Yes there are many souls in Paradise and it was only the fallen Adam in his human form that could not get into heaven. Nor can we in our physical form but when we leave our physical bodies, we can enter Paradise. That is why Jesus died on the Cross, to cancel Adam's death. and give us back his original Life.

There were two strange trees in the Eden, that made the Eden very special. What would happen if satan lured Eve to the Tree of Life? What would satan say to Eve in that case? Not much. Adam and Eve will not be attracted by longevity.

I guess if Adam and Eve ate the Fruit of Live, they would simply become two stupid angels like other angels. Satan would certainly not take it as any victory over God.

The real real critical key is that we now can tell good from evil. This is very very important. No other animals can do that. Even angels can not do that.

 

[pgp_protector]

There were two strange trees in the Eden, that made the Eden very special. What would happen if satan lured Eve to the Tree of Life? What would satan say to Eve in that case? Not much. Adam and Eve will not be attracted by longevity.

I guess if Adam and Eve ate the Fruit of Live, they would simply become two stupid angels like other angels. Satan would certainly not take it as any victory over God.

The real real critical key is that we now can tell good from evil. This is very very important. No other animals can do that. Even angels can not do that.

maybe he should of had them eat first from the tree of life & then the tree of knowledge, and then one more trip to the tree of life

 

[cleminson]

maybe he should of had them eat first from the tree of life & then the tree of knowledge, and then one more trip to the tree of life

God said that if they ate from the Tree of the KoGaE they would die. I have started a new thread discussing Eden, Paradise and Heaven. To my way of thinking Eden was a spiritual place, so their death "demoted" them to our Physical Earth, already created.

 

[pgp_protector]

God said that if they ate from the Tree of the KoGaE they would die. I have started a new thread discussing Eden, Paradise and Heaven. To my way of thinking Eden was a spiritual place, so their death "demoted" them to our Physical Earth, already created.

Yes, but didn't God remove them from Eden so that they Wouldn't eat from the tree of Life ?
If they ate that first then what ?

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."


(Note Genesis 3:22 is AFTER they ate from the tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil)

 

[cleminson]

Yes, but didn't God remove them from Eden so that they Wouldn't eat from the tree of Life ?
If they ate that first then what ?

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."


(Note Genesis 3:22 is AFTER they ate from the tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil)

I think that God in His Mercy took them out of the Garden so that they could not eat of the Tree of Life. Imagine living forever in a fallen state with no hope of the "old" perfect life. So Adam had the first death in the Garden and then lived for 930 years on this Earth, until he died physically, like we do. As he had a relationship with God while in Eden and while on this Earth, I believe that because of that he returned to his place in Paradise when he finally died!!??

 

[Fed]

The real real critical key is that we now can tell good from evil. This is very very important. No other animals can do that. Even angels can not do that.

If angels can't tell good from evil then why does the Bible say 1/3 chose to abandon God and follow Satan?

If Adam and Eve couldn't tell good from evil before the Fall then how is eating from the Tree of Knowledge even a sin? When it says they now "know good and evil" the text is saying that they placed their conception of morality ahead of God's. That's why God said "they've become like one of us". They replaced the God-given morality with their own, becoming independent moral agents.

Finally, if Adam and Eve had to eat from the Tree of Life to attain immortality then there's no way every single animal was also immortal unless they all ate from the Tree. Their death was spiritual, not physical - otherwise they would have died the day they ate the fruit.

Just my thoughts.

 

[juvenissun]

If angels can't tell good from evil then why does the Bible say 1/3 chose to abandon God and follow Satan?

Because they can not tell good and evil.

If Adam and Eve couldn't tell good from evil before the Fall then how is eating from the Tree of Knowledge even a sin?

It was not a sin to Eve. It became a sin AFTER she ate it. That is because she could not tell good and evil. She did not know that it is sin to violate the forbidden rule. She knew it AFTERWARD.

They replaced the God-given morality with their own, becoming independent moral agents.

What is the "God-given morality"?

Finally, if Adam and Eve had to eat from the Tree of Life to attain immortality then there's no way every single animal was also immortal unless they all ate from the Tree.

Adam and Eve will not die in the Eden even they do not eat the fruit of Life. I do not know what would happen if they rejected satan. Was there only one rule to Adam in the Garden? How many times satan had tried to make them sin?

As well as animals, I think they do die. Just like vegetation will die in the Garden.

 

[cleminson]

If angels can't tell good from evil then why does the Bible say 1/3 chose to abandon God and follow Satan?

I think that Satan had already fallen by the Time Adam was created, so I do not think that this does not apply to Adam. I also agree with you that Angels do know right from wrong.

If Adam and Eve couldn't tell good from evil before the Fall then how is eating from the Tree of Knowledge even a sin? When it says they now "know good and evil" the text is saying that they placed their conception of morality ahead of God's. That's why God said "they've become like one of us". They replaced the God-given morality with their own, becoming independent moral agents.

The only rule that God made for Adam was "do not eat the fruit off the tree of KoGaE", or he would die. They broke the only law and died immediatly as God said they would. I agree 100% with your conclusion however.

Finally, if Adam and Eve had to eat from the Tree of Life to attain immortality then there's no way every single animal was also immortal unless they all ate from the Tree. Their death was spiritual, not physical - otherwise they would have died the day they ate the fruit.

I do not think that Adam needed to eat of the ToL because he was living forever. So the ToL must have been a type of Jesus. I also think that the animals in the GoE were spiritual beasts and have not died. I think that they might have been a type of "blue print" for God's Earthly creation.

Post Script. I have finally mastered the quotes, Hallelujah!

 

[juvenissun]

I also think that the animals in the GoE were spiritual beasts and have not died.

What is a "spiritual beast"?

I know this type of thing is common in Buddhism, but never heard of it in Christianity.

 

[Assyrian]

What is a "spiritual beast"?

I know this type of thing is common in Buddhism, but never heard of it in Christianity.

How about...
Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. 7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

 

[cleminson]

What is a "spiritual beast"?

I know this type of thing is common in Buddhism, but never heard of it in Christianity.

I refere you to Assyrians reply