Death before the Fall

[headhoncho]

Hi there Headhoncho. I am really sorry but I have tried to understand your reply to my contribution to this thread but I cannot. Could you try again. I am sorry if this is your level of English, if it is I will try to understand where you are coming from again.

Hi cleminson, I really don't see why would you be sorry, you simply
do not understand anything I write, and that's It.
Why would that be your fault ?
I've never learned English in School, but I have lived 14 years in Countries where people speak English
( 3 years in UK and 11 years in the US ), and have never experienced what you've just told me.
I will sure not reply to you again, so this kind of situation will not
bother you again.
My apologies.

love

Pete from Jewpiter

 

[headhoncho]

I'm perfectly capable of understanding something, it's helpful if it actually makes sense though. You seem to think that for Adam and Eve to be "fruitful and multiply" they had to be sinful? Now that is odd and utterly unbiblical!

the Fijian, how can someone who is eternal as Adam and Eve were,
someone who doesn't age, procreate baby, that will age ?
Having knowledge of good and evil is not a Sin, Genesis 3:22
" Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"
Sin that brings mortality, and platform for procreation, is disobedience of God's commandment.
When Kingdom of Heaven turn over power to New Heaven,
1 Corinthians 15:24-28, Isaiah 65:17, there will be no sin, death, or
procreation.
Entire Human kind is sinful, till the Day of the Lord, John 6:44,
at that day, the Saved will resurrect/cross over into immortality,
just as first couple have crossed over into mortality.
That's going to happen' to you, you are the Saved, because,
you fit the profile of the Saved person.
All that you need, is patience.
You see F, God's plan that allows His incarnated dwelling to live with
all these hot women and intelligent men, Revelation 21:3,7, couldn't be done any other way.
The Son needed to die in immortal flesh, so the Father and the Saved will live immortally in flesh.

 

[theFijian]

the Fijian, how can someone who is eternal as Adam and Eve were,
someone who doesn't age, procreate baby, that will age?

Adam and Eve were not eternal! Eternal means to have no beginning and no end, Adam and Eve had a beginning! Unfortunately you are not as clever or as insightful as you think you are, as a result you pile error upon error. I think though you highlight one of the problems with the literal interpretation, did Adam and Eve age? if they had children before the fall would they not have aged also? Would they have eventually died of old age? Interesting angle.

Sin that brings mortality, and platform for procreation, is disobedience of God's commandment.

God told them to be "fruitful and multiply" before the fall, by your reasoning God's command to not eat from the tree went against his own will for them to procreate! I see you've taken the literal interpretation and put you're own bizarre twist on it.

 

[headhoncho]

Adam and Eve were not eternal! Eternal means to have no beginning and no end, Adam and Eve had a beginning! Unfortunately you are not as clever or as insightful as you think you are, as a result you pile error upon error. I think though you highlight one of the problems with the literal interpretation, did Adam and Eve age? if they had children before the fall would they not have aged also? Would they have eventually died of old age? Interesting angle.

I will not tolerate personal insults that you're not allowed to post.
If you have proof, that I am Lying, quote my words, and explain what is the truth.
Access to the tree of Life is eternity/immortality, that's why It was
sealed off for 6000 years, Genesis 3:24
Adam and Eve did not have children before the Fall, why do I have to deal with your imagination ?

God told them to be "fruitful and multiply" before the fall, by your reasoning God's command to not eat from the tree went against his own will for them to procreate! I see you've taken the literal interpretation and put you're own bizarre twist on it.

Genesis 1:1 - Genesis 2:3 is entire Human History, from the Creation
of Human on this Planet, up to the Day of The Lord, the Seventh Day. Genesis 1:28 is testimony of God about what is going to happen', it is a prophecy, not a commandment.
If God didn't want every man to be a sinner, why would He create
Satan, why would God Himself prevent man from seeing and hearing
The Truth, Isaiah 6:9-10 ?
Why don't you quote my words, that present my "literal interpretation" of Genesis verses ?
And, again, don't let me catch you one more time saying how
stupid I am.

 

[theFijian]

I will not tolerate personal insults that you're not allowed to post.
If you have proof, that I am Lying, quote my words, and explain what is the truth.

Sorry, where did I accuse you of lying? I merely pointed out your error.

Access to the tree of Life is eternity/immortality, that's why It was
sealed off for 6000 years, Genesis 3:24
Adam and Eve did not have children before the Fall, why do I have to deal with your imagination ?

I didn't say they did have children before the fall! Note the use of the word 'if', a logical conjunction to connect two propositions. But as I will show, there was no reason they could not have had children!

Genesis 1:1 - Genesis 2:3 is entire Human History, from the Creation
of Human on this Planet, up to the Day of The Lord, the Seventh Day. Genesis 1:28 is testimony of God about what is going to happen', it is a prophecy, not a commandment.

God commanded Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply (Genesis 1:28) before the fall. Fact.
"...and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply..."
This is a simple fact, God spoke to Adam and Eve and told them what to do, ie. He commanded them!

Was the command not to eat from the tree also just testimony or a prophecy about what would happen? (Gen2:15)
"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat"
Woops looks like God got that prophecy wrong didn't he!

If God didn't want every man to be a sinner, why would He create
Satan, why would God Himself prevent man from seeing and hearing
The Truth, Isaiah 6:9-10 ?

Gen 2:15 was the only prohibitive command God gave Adam, so why would God command Adam and Eve to do something which would by necessity require them to go against one of his other commands? Wy would God command them to do something which required them to be sinful! You created this problem for yourself!

Why don't you quote my words, that present my "literal interpretation" of Genesis verses ?

I just have.

And, again, don't let me catch you one more time saying how
stupid I am.

Really, don't accuse me of not having understanding when it's quite clear you have precious little yourself! Your words have rebounded spectacularly on you.

 

[cleminson]

Hi cleminson, I really don't see why would you be sorry, you simply
do not understand anything I write, and that's It.
Why would that be your fault ?
I've never learned English in School, but I have lived 14 years in Countries where people speak English
( 3 years in UK and 11 years in the US ), and have never experienced what you've just told me.
I will sure not reply to you again, so this kind of situation will not
bother you again.
My apologies.

love

Pete from Jewpiter

Head Honcho

No I am sorry, I had no intension of being rude to you. That was not my intension, I just did not understand you. If you can rephrase it great, if not, I really do understand. Kindest regards Cleminson

 

[LittleNipper]

Ecc 3:21 Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?

The words have been translated into english interchangably, but there is a difference. Animals are two part. Man is three part.

 

[Assyrian]

It is the same word in Hebrew, ruach. The word translated soul, nephesh, is used for animals as well as humans.

 

[headhoncho]

Sorry, where did I accuse you of lying? I merely pointed out your error.
I didn't say they did have children before the fall! Note the use of the word 'if', a logical conjunction to connect two propositions. But as I will show, there was no reason they could not have had children!
God commanded Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply (Genesis 1:28) before the fall. Fact.
"...and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply..."
This is a simple fact, God spoke to Adam and Eve and told them what to do, ie. He commanded them!

Was the command not to eat from the tree also just testimony or a prophecy about what would happen? (Gen2:15)
"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat"
Woops looks like God got that prophecy wrong didn't he!

Where did you accuse me of lying, here;

Unfortunately you are not as clever or as insightful as you think you are, as a result you pile error upon error.

If I'm making errors in translating metaphors of
Genesis 1-3, that means I am lying.
Now, you have said, that Adam and Eve were not eternal before the Fall, why would God have to say
to Adam (because, at that point Eve wasn't created yet, which is very important) " but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." ??
If Adam was mortal, how can death be punishment for disobedience,
or, what is the Tree of Life for, if Adam was mortal anyway ?

Also, how can the blessing, Genesis 1:28, be considered as
a commandment ?
God have blessed them, because He knew His Plan was for Man
to multiply/procreate.
Your disbelief in Adam and Eve's eternal flesh and blood, prevents
you from understanding infertile nature of eternal flesh.

Gen 2:15 was the only prohibitive command God gave Adam, so why would God command Adam and Eve to do something which would by necessity require them to go against one of his other commands? Wy would God command them to do something which required them to be sinful! You created this problem for yourself!
I just have.
Really, don't accuse me of not having understanding when it's quite clear you have precious little yourself! Your words have rebounded spectacularly on you.

Again, Genesis 1:1 - Genesis 2:3 is Prophecy, blessing for the World,
that the Lord loves so much, and Genesis 2:4 - Genesis 3:24 is only a
segment of the story, how first Man's baby was conceived, and how
Sin is integral part of human flesh and blood, till another "divine" intervention, or Salvation by the Grace of the Lord, takes place.
Again, try not to worry who I am, because that is none of your business.
There are Lies, and there is the truth, regardless of peoples intention.

 

[headhoncho]

It is the same word in Hebrew, ruach. The word translated soul, nephesh, is used for animals as well as humans.

Correct, Soul is property of everything that have blood, and breathes.
Spirit is everything Soul see, say, or do.

 

[theFijian]

Where did you accuse me of lying, here;

If I'm making errors in translating metaphors of
Genesis 1-3, that means I am lying.

TO be in error does not automatically make you a liar. A 12 year old would know this!

Now, you have said, that Adam and Eve were not eternal before the Fall, why would God have to say
to Adam (because, at that point Eve wasn't created yet, which is very important) " [/color][/size][/color][/font]but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." ??
If Adam was mortal, how can death be punishment for disobedience,
or, what is the Tree of Life for, if Adam was mortal anyway ?

One more thing you do not understand, just because Adam and Eve were not eternal (ie. they did have a beginning, unlike God) does not mean they were mortal!

Also, how can the blessing, Genesis 1:28, be considered as
a commandment ?
God have blessed them, because He knew His Plan was for Man
to multiply/procreate.
Your disbelief in Adam and Eve's eternal flesh and blood, prevents
you from understanding infertile nature of eternal flesh.

No you simply do not understand that God commanded them to be fruitful and multiply and have wishful thinking as the only basis for your claim that . Your disbelief in the commandments of God prevents you from understanding the nature of God.

Again, Genesis 1:1 - Genesis 2:3 is Prophecy,

So why does it end there? Why is Gen 2:15 not prophecy?
"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat"
But they did eat! If this passage is prophecy why did God get it so completely wrong? You words have rebounded spectacularly on you.

There are Lies, and there is the truth, regardless of peoples intention.

Wrong! Get a dictionary:

lie1

/laɪ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[lahy] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, lied, ly·ing. –noun 1.a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.

 

[headhoncho]

TO be in error does not automatically make you a liar. A 12 year old would know this!
One more thing you do not understand, just because Adam and Eve were not eternal (ie. they did have a beginning, unlike God) does not mean they were mortal!

If you say, that my explanation of Biblical verses is in error, that means that i am spreading Lies.
The reason you do not understand this, is your belief, in English language being some kind of authority. God have created languages
to confuse people, Genesis 11:7 " Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech."
English language is punishment, not authority.
Can you please explain to me how can immortal person Die ?
Here's explanation by Jesus, about what does person resurrected
in Christ, Mark 16:17-18" And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

No you simply do not understand that God commanded them to be fruitful and multiply and have wishful thinking as the only basis for your claim that . Your disbelief in the commandments of God prevents you from understanding the nature of God.

the Fijian, you believe in "free will", and I know, I don't have It,
No one does, we have love, in form of our existence, we only make "choices", God created for us, as solely Creator, Isaiah 45:5-7
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:

I the LORD do all these things.
Blessing is like Prophecy one way street, from God to a man,
commandment is two way, action-reaction, don't do this, or you die,
or in "newer terms", do love, and you will not die.
Man can't believe or disbelieve commandments, man know them and obey them, or, man don't know them, and is marked by sin/death.

So why does it end there? Why is Gen 2:15 not prophecy?
"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat"
But they did eat! If this passage is prophecy why did God get it so completely wrong? You words have rebounded spectacularly on you.

Because 7th day is eternity, there is no procreation/creation, as
we knew It, after the Day of The Lord.
Genesis 1-3 is like Matrix, system within the system, because,
Entire Creation of The World (Earth) is described as 6 days, and
6 days, or 6000 years, is Prophetic tool, to describe period between
Introduction of The Word, and destruction of The Word,
Kingdom of Heaven/Christ, and New Heaven/The Lord aka Son of Man. Creation of Adam from dirt is deep metaphor, that explains
nature of Man who was introduced Spirit of God/The Word/Christ.
That's why, there are two types of Man, from God, descendants
of Eve, Genesis 3:20 " And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
And there is Primate descendant, who was crossed with A&E's kids,
Genesis 6:2 " the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. "
You see, Eve's descendants have ability to turn off emotions,
Primate descendants do not.
You are Eve's descendant, but there is 'rocky road' ahead of your
full transformation/resurrection.

Wrong! Get a dictionary:

/laɪ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[lahy] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, lied, ly·ing. –noun 1.a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.

So, pathological liars, do not lie, because they are sick, and they
actually didn't have intention to lie, It is their sickness that make them tell lies, right.
Someone says "snow is black", and that's not a lie, because that
person is mentally challenged, but if you say that, you are liar, right ?
You guys also have "idea" that believing = knowing

And for you belief is not a Lie, if it belongs to your religion, but
Islam, Hindu, or Shinto beliefs are Lies, right ?

" Jesus from Nazareth is not dead, and He will descend riding on
the Cloud !! " Is this the truth for you ?

 

[theFijian]

If you say, that my explanation of Biblical verses is in error, that means that i am spreading Lies.
The reason you do not understand this, is your belief, in English language being some kind of authority. God have created languages
to confuse people, Genesis 11:7 " Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech."

Oh please! I guess the irony escapes you that you try to tell me that the english language holds no authority and then proceed to tell me whay I am wrong.... in the english language! Your explanation holds no authority therefore you must accept that the defence of your views also holds no authority. Creationism and Post-modernism seem to go hand-in-hand these days!

* snip premillenial claptrap *

So, pathological liars, do not lie, because they are sick, and they
actually didn't have intention to lie, It is their sickness that make them tell lies, right.
Someone says "snow is black", and that's not a lie, because that
person is mentally challenged, but if you say that, you are liar, right ?

Wrong! A lie requires intent. There must be intention!

in·ten·tion

/ɪnˈtɛn

ʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-ten-shuh

n] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1.an act or instance of determining mentally upon some action or result.

If someone is psychologically ill then they cannot be held responsible for their actions, therefore there is no deliberate intent, no 'determining mentally' to so what they do, their condition, their illness makes them act such. If a child has a bad maths teacher and they are taught that 2 + 2 = 5, then if that child comes and tells you that 2 + 2 = 5 that is not a lie! It is error, but not a lie! The child doesn't know any better!

I understand that english may not be your native tongue, but it looks like you still have a bit of language study to do.

 

[headhoncho]

I understand that english may not be your native tongue, but it looks like you still have a bit of language study to do.

This is not about my knowledge of English, this is about
English definitions of words that are differently defined in other
Languages, I mean fundamentally different.

But, here I need your expertize on Lying here,
" Now Peter was sitting out in the courtyard, and a servant girl came to him. "You also were with Jesus of Galilee," she said. But he denied it before them all. "I don't know what you're talking about," he said.
Then he went out to the gateway, where another girl saw him and said to the people there, "This fellow was with Jesus of Nazareth."
He denied it again, with an oath: "I don't know the man!"
After a little while, those standing there went up to Peter and said, "Surely you are one of them, for your accent gives you away."
Then he began to call down curses on himself and he swore to them, "I don't know the man!"

Are those red letter responses Lies ?

 

[LittleNipper]

This is not about my knowledge of English, this is about
English definitions of words that are differently defined in other
Languages, I mean fundamentally different.

But, here I need your expertize on Lying here,
" Now Peter was sitting out in the courtyard, and a servant girl came to him. "You also were with Jesus of Galilee," she said. But he denied it before them all. "I don't know what you're talking about," he said.
Then he went out to the gateway, where another girl saw him and said to the people there, "This fellow was with Jesus of Nazareth."
He denied it again, with an oath: "I don't know the man!"
After a little while, those standing there went up to Peter and said, "Surely you are one of them, for your accent gives you away."
Then he began to call down curses on himself and he swore to them, "I don't know the man!"

Are those red letter responses Lies ?

JESUS said that Peter would deny HIM three times before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed. The Bible does record lies; however, the Bible displays them as lies and never paints lies as the truth.

 

[headhoncho]

JESUS said that Peter would deny HIM three times before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed. The Bible does record lies; however, the Bible displays them as lies and never paints lies as the truth.

You need to tell that to the Fijian genius, I hear you, loud and clear.
Simon bar Jonah was "All Heart" type of Person, He loved Jesus
more than any other Disciple.
But if you follow closely, He was completely dual, before, and after
Holy Spirit grabbed Him.
I mean Matthew 16 is a complete massacre of reason, but there is
an explanation for Matthew 16:18-19
" And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." (I mean this last part is The Book of Life)
and than in Matthew 16:23
" Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

If you take a close look at Matthew 24, you will see that Jesus is addressing His Disciples with things that will happen' 2000 years
later, same way, in Matthew 16:18-19, He was talking about
some other "Rock" or Peter, because Christ sure doesn't build,
or resurrect The Saved into Lie/Satan, but into 100% the truth,
free of Sin.

Peter from Jewpiter

 

[theFijian]

This is not about my knowledge of English, this is about
English definitions of words that are differently defined in other
Languages, I mean fundamentally different.

But, here I need your expertize on Lying here,
" Now Peter was sitting out in the courtyard, and a servant girl came to him. "You also were with Jesus of Galilee," she said. But he denied it before them all. "I don't know what you're talking about," he said.
Then he went out to the gateway, where another girl saw him and said to the people there, "This fellow was with Jesus of Nazareth."
He denied it again, with an oath: "I don't know the man!"
After a little while, those standing there went up to Peter and said, "Surely you are one of them, for your accent gives you away."
Then he began to call down curses on himself and he swore to them, "I don't know the man!"

Are those red letter responses Lies ?

Do you understand what the word deliberate means?? Peter deliberately gave information he knew to be false, therefore he lied. I have not accused you of doing the same thing! Seriously you need to study the english language better before you accuse people of things!

You need to tell that to the Fijian genius, I hear you, loud and clear.

I understand what a lie is, you have demonstrated for us that you do not! I simply have not accused you of lying despite you protestations otherwise. You need to grasp the difference between intent and lack of intent.

 

[headhoncho]

Do you understand what the word deliberate means?? Peter deliberately gave information he knew to be false, therefore he lied. I have not accused you of doing the same thing! Seriously you need to study the english language better before you accuse people of things!

It's will of God, that was opening mouth of Peter, " But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away." Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you that this very night, before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times."
Peter said to Him, "Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You." All the disciples said the same thing too."
The same way, bud, you believe in illusion called "free will", instead
giving all Glory to the Lord, for your entire existence.
You are making choices for Him, your existence is His plan,

not yours.
You are throwing hissy fit, and taking me, on a "marry go round",
because you can't grasp concept, of English language being
imperfect ?

I understand what a lie is, you have demonstrated for us that you do not! I simply have not accused you of lying despite you protestations otherwise. You need to grasp the difference between intent and lack of intent.

Before English language was created, Lie was everything that
isn't the truth. Now UK and US are telling only the truth, to
the World, because their intent is not to deceive, but, to rule
the World. It's a wonderful English World.

 

[cleminson]

I believe that Adam and Eve lived in a spiritual "world" before the fall. where there was no death. When Adam sinned against God he died to that world, as God said he would. Death entered Eden at that point and I believe that Adam fell to our physical Earth to live out his life for another 930 years, when he died finally as we will one day.

I believe that death entered our world the moment God commanded the water to bring forth life. The water (mayim) was a type of primordial soup created in the half spirit half physical place that was Satans original prison. As the by product of sin our world was created from imperfection yet God loved it at each stage of Creation.

 

[theFijian]

It's will of God, that was opening mouth of Peter, " But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away." Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you that this very night, before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times."
Peter said to Him, "Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You." All the disciples said the same thing too."
The same way, bud, you believe in illusion called "free will", instead
giving all Glory to the Lord, for your entire existence.
You are making choices for Him, your existence is His plan,

not yours.
You are throwing hissy fit, and taking me, on a "marry go round",
because you can't grasp concept, of English language being
imperfect ?

Did I say the english languae was perfect? People will get annoyed when you keep falsely accusing them of things they haven't done. Any language is imperfect but english does a very good job if people actually know what the words mean. Of course there's still the irony that all you just typed was in English and not some other perfect language.

Before English language was created, Lie was everything that
isn't the truth. Now UK and US are telling only the truth, to
the World, because their intent is not to deceive, but, to rule
the World. It's a wonderful English World.

Utter cobblers.