Death before the Fall - round 2!

[SBG]

So the result of sin was immediate. God cursed creation and it immediately changed.

Sounds good.

So the result of sin was gradual. Animals started to prey on each other due to sin, but it happened so gradually that 1500 years after the Fall, predation still wasn't enough of a problem to cause problems on an ark full of animals.

This is your reponse to what you quoted of me saying? I said:

"I just don’t think lions or bears were inclined to kill a man or another animal on the six day of creation or on the ark. So predation may have been something that was not part of the animal’s instincts in the original creation, but later came about."

That before the fall predation may not have been an instinct within animals, but later after the fall it came about. Whether is was right after the fall and God then kept the animals from their predation instincts in the ark, I don't know.

I really don't understand your position.

I apologize. I thought I had been clear that I was speculating and in all honestly I didn't know for sure.

I am really getting the opinion you are demanding me to take a position on this when I don't have one. I'm sorry, but I just don't know what life was exactly like before the fall of mankind. All I can do is speculate. I cannot give you a definite answer, or take a specific side because the Bible doesn't speak of this as it pertains to a pre-fallen world.

Can we leave this as speculation? Can we be humble enough to say, I don't know and move on? Or do we need to keep hashing this out forever?

 

[SBG]

Hey, we can argue about what color is Jesus' hair or if He has hair. -- Just a joke BTW.

I just don't see the point to keep on and on with this argument as if someone here has the true answer. No one here does on something that neither of us was there for and the Bible does not speak about.

 

[Spiritualyalive]

Jeepers creepers! God commanded the slaughtering of animals in the Temple. The priests were to eat the meat of certain sacrifices as their means for sustenance.

Leviticus 6:25-26 niv
"Say to Aaron and his sons: 'These are the regulations for the sin offering: The sin offering is to be slaughtered before the LORD in the place the burnt offering is slaughtered; it is most holy. The priest who offers it shall eat it; it is to be eaten in a holy place, in the courtyard of the Tent of Meeting."

Just do a search throughout the Law. The priests were to eat the meat of various sacrificed animals. We do not see any commands to place a carrot on the alter and slice it. Do we?

Jesus ate lamb. It is a required part of the Passover meal. And, Jesus cooked and served fish!

John 21:10-13 niv
"Jesus said to them, "Bring some of the fish you have just caught."
Simon Peter climbed aboard and dragged the net ashore.

It was full of large fish, 153, but even with so many the net was not torn. Jesus said to them, "Come and have breakfast." None of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord. Jesus came, took the bread and gave it to them, and did the same with the fish."

Yummmmm! That must have been great fish!

And, the Lord had created fish with some vital nutrients that are excellent for our health!



Death before the fall of Adam (in this creation) did not exist in this creation. Yet, in prior creations death was everywhere to be found. Satan knew what the word "death" meant when Adam was told not to eat. I suspect Satan thought Adam and Eve would have died on the spot if he got them to eat. But, God spoke of spiritual death concerning Adam. Physical death was only a result, and came much later.



God does not change. But God does change our realities, depending on the circumstances. He has always done that. He can bless. And, he can curse. He does not change. Our realities do.



Grace and peace, GeneZ

Thanks for pointing that out Genez.

Many don't realize that the price of sin is Spiritual death and physical death only came after Spiritual death took place.

 

[Marshall Janzen]

I am really getting the opinion you are demanding me to take a position on this when I don't have one.

No, I've just been inviting you to follow through on your speculation about animal predation resulting from sin to see where it leads. If your speculation about one passage causes it to contradict with other passages, maybe your speculation is incorrect. Testing speculation should be an important part of forming an opinion.

Can we leave this as speculation? Can we be humble enough to say, I don't know and move on? Or do we need to keep hashing this out forever?

I think you may be confusing speculation with fantasizing. If you claimed your ideas were only a fantasy, I wouldn't point out how I think they are at odds with Scripture and logic. But, when you speculate, you're going to be held to a higher standard.

 

[SBG]

No, I've just been inviting you to follow through on your speculation about animal predation resulting from sin to see where it leads. If your speculation about one passage causes it to contradict with other passages, maybe your speculation is incorrect. Testing speculation should be an important part of forming an opinion.

I was never trying to form an opinion on the subject. The Bible is quiet about it and so I will not take to an opinion if there was or wasn't.

Questions were asked of me, I speculated on what could or could not be some answers without ever truly taking any time to think about it more than what I have responded with.

I do not see the need to make a conclusion on this. Even though you have pressed me to form an opinion, I have not opinion on this nor will I until Christ tells me.

I do understand the need for a theistic evolutionists to make an opinion on this.

I think you may be confusing speculation with fantasizing. If you claimed your ideas were only a fantasy, I wouldn't point out how I think they are at odds with Scripture and logic. But, when you speculate, you're going to be held to a higher standard.

I see, so you are going to call my thoughts fantasies. That just says to me that you do have an opinion and you will uphold that opinion because of your beliefs in evolution. As you said previously, Scripture doesn't tell us one way or another if there was animal death before the fall, but you think earth does tell us that animal death did happen before the fall. So, with your belief that the Bible is silent, you have pressed me to say that it isn't silent by trying to get me to form an opinion on it.

As I have continually said, there may or may not have been animal death before the fall of mankind. I have speculating about it, but have consistently said I don't know.

Animal death whether it was or wasn't has nothing to do with God creating in six days.

 

[shernren]

Well, SBG, I take you at your word. What about the others? I can see that many, many, many times, a classic anti-evolution argument is "There was no animal death before the Fall, hence no evolution before the Fall". To support that argument is to conclusively know that there was no animal death before the Fall. Now, do we actually know that?

 

[SBG]

Well, SBG, I take you at your word. What about the others? I can see that many, many, many times, a classic anti-evolution argument is "There was no animal death before the Fall, hence no evolution before the Fall". To support that argument is to conclusively know that there was no animal death before the Fall. Now, do we actually know that?

Thank you for taking me at my word. I do appreciate.

The YEC issue with death is not solely about animals, it is about humans. Concerning animals, Romans 8 can be used to say that animals, that are part of creation, are being talked about as well. To further show proof that not just man was affected directly by his sin, Genesis 3:17-19 talks about creation being cursed.

Paul then teaches to the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 15 that death is defeat because it is an enemy to God. The word is defined as physical death and sometimes can mean both physical and spiritual. If they are an enemy to God, why would death exist before sin?

That right there can be the basic principle to uphold a no death before the fall of mankind.

As I said, I devated from this type of position to concede something to Mercury to see if he would concede anything back as well. He did not. Even though I left a YEC stance, he remained with his TE stance.

There is nothing wrong with that, but it shows his motivation of what he wants to do.

 

[Marshall Janzen]

I see, so you are going to call my thoughts fantasies.

No, I am not going to do that. Instead, I treated your thoughts as you presented them: as speculation. It was because I didn't treat your ideas as fantasies that I interacted with them and critiqued them.

As you said previously, Scripture doesn't tell us one way or another if there was animal death before the fall, but you think earth does tell us that animal death did happen before the fall.

Yes, the Bible is silent about whether animal death happened before the Fall, and I accept that creation itself answers that question. The Bible is more clear that animal death and predation isn't evil and isn't a result of sin.

As I said, I devated from this type of position to concede something to Mercury to see if he would concede anything back as well. He did not. Even though I left a YEC stance, he remained with his TE stance.

SBG, I'm not going to concede something just for the sake of conceding. I need to agree with it first. What exactly would you like me to concede?

 

[Delta One]

Mercury,

Where does the Bible say that physical death for everything is a direct result of man's sin?

In 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 we read that "For since by man came death". In otherwords, death is the result of man. Perhaps a better avenue for this discussion is considering what would happen to the Salvation message if death, including animal death, has been around before Adam's Fall.

So death and bloodshed are the consequences of sin (Romans 5:12); the penalty which Christ, the Last Adam, bore by His death and shedding of blood on the cross but later triumphed over death in His glorious resurrection for the redemption of man such that He could offer life to those who believe in Him. As Christians, don’t we believe that Jesus, the Son of God, came to triumph over death? If God’s been using suffering and death over millions of years to create things, wouldn’t Jesus be opposing the plan of God? Hence, if bloodshed and death existed before man sinned, the redemption message is nonsense.

Do you also include plant death in that "everything"?

I believe that plants were given for us and the animals to eat (Genesis 1:29-30: And God said, behold I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the Earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the Earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to everything that creepeth upon the Earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat; and it was so). I think that there is a level of death that is not considered by God to be 'moral death', e.g. plant death and the death of certain cells. Of course, we could argue about this until the cows come home, that is why it is more reasonable to consider the consequences of animal death before Adam's Fall on the Salvation message, as I have done above.

Do you dispute what Paul says in Romans 5 where he claims that "sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned"? If this is the way animal death came into the world too, does that mean that all animals sin?

Also try reading 1 Corinthians 15:21-22. It's interesting to note that the first part of the Biblical quote you used, 'sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin' actually describes how death entered the world, while the second part 'and in this way death came to all men, because all have sinned' describes it with reference to mankind.

 

[GenemZ]

Thanks for pointing that out Genez.

Many don't realize that the price of sin is Spiritual death and physical death only came after Spiritual death took place.

I was pointing, but it seems you only saw it.

Good to see you're here. I had been wondering where you had been.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[Marshall Janzen]

Perhaps a better avenue for this discussion is considering what would happen to the Salvation message if death, including animal death, has been around before Adam's Fall.

By saying "death, including animal death" you're asking the wrong question. Obviously, the kind of death that started with sin didn't exist before the Fall. The question is what kind of death that is. What happens to the salvation message if animal death has been around since before the Fall? It remains completely intact. You can only make it into a crisis by wondering if all death, including animal death, was around before.

As Christians, don’t we believe that Jesus, the Son of God, came to triumph over death?

Yes. But what kind of death? Cellular death? Plant death? Animal death? Human death? All of the above?

If God’s been using suffering and death over millions of years to create things, wouldn’t Jesus be opposing the plan of God? Hence, if bloodshed and death existed before man sinned, the redemption message is nonsense.

If God planned on many years of plant death to feed things and cellular death to allow things to grow, wouldn't Jesus be opposing this plan by outlawing death? See the problem when you increase the scope of that death beyond humans?

Also, why this zeal to make the redemption message "nonsense" if you're wrong on this issue? At least SBG was willing to discuss his speculation on the issue on its own merits rather claiming that if his speculation was wrong, Jesus was useless. While I disagree with his viewpoint on this issue, I do respect him for that.

I think that there is a level of death that is not considered by God to be 'moral death', e.g. plant death and the death of certain cells.

Me too, except I include animal death in that too. I think humans are special.

Also try reading 1 Corinthians 15:21-22.

Sure, let's look at that: "For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."

Are you claiming that all the animals will be resurrected in Christ as well? If not, how can the death apply to animals? The "for as ... so also" seems to establish a direct link.

It's interesting to note that the first part of the Biblical quote you used, 'sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin' actually describes how death entered the world, while the second part 'and in this way death came to all men, because all have sinned' describes it with reference to mankind.

If you read the first part of the verse as referring to all death, then this verse must say to you that plant death and cellular death also started with sin. If you want to specify just some kinds of death, then why not use the specification within the same sentence? "Death came to all men".

But, let's use your approach to the rest of this passage. Your claim is that the first part of verse 12 refers to death in general, and only the latter part of the verse focuses on human death. Let's look at some references to life in this passage:

Romans 5:18,21: "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. [...] [A]s sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Would you use the same approach? In other words, does verse 18 talk about life in general, while verse 21 just speaks of eternal life? Or, do you think that both verses speak of eternal life? I think they do. Similarly, I think all of verse 12 speaks of human death. The later clarifications ("death spread to all men" and "eternal life") specify the type of death and life that Paul is talking about.

 

[shernren]

I may not be a formal theologian but what I do know is that man's death is so terrifying because it separates man from God. Jesus died and was resurrected to show us how to not be separated from God. I think that was the "death" that Jesus overcame. Question is, are animals subject to this same kind of "death"? I don't think so: how do you separate an animal from God when it has never had the capacity to consciously love or worship God?