Death Before Sin!

[Adstar]

As a Christian of 10 years now I'm always studying into Theology, Philosophy, etc... So I'm always learning something new and expanding my knowledge of God. I've recently come across something rather troubling and it's been testing my faith.

That is that Animals where suffering before Sin entered into the world. God said that everything was "Very Good", but how could God think that the suffering of Animals, Cancer, viruses, etc... within these Animals is "Very Good"? That means that death must have been apart of Gods original plan. Furthermore, God find's it "Very Good" where as I find it morally wrong and despicable that God would allow this torture. God gives us empathy for these Creatures he put's on the Earth but then would enable this barbaric cycle of death and suffering to occur between the different species of Animals that eat each other. I can't get my head around this and feel a huge contradiction in my heart about God!

I'm very aware that prior to Adam's sin/disobedience death was limited to plant life. Plants where not given life by God, as I understand.

Please help me to understand, Thanks!

Where does it say in genisis that animals died during the time beforehumans obtained the knowledge of good and evil ??? Let me answer my question for you... It doesn't..

When humanity is eventually totally recosiled to God and there comes a new heavens and a new earth what will be the state of the lives of animals? Shall they also be restored back to a Good state of being as before in the garden of eden. When all creation was Good? Let me answer that question also by posting some scripture on the issue::

Isaiah 11: KJV
6 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. {7} And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. {8} And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. {9} They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea."

 

[Anguspure]

Animals did not suffer nor did they eat each other, prior to sin and death caused by us entered the world... How did you arrive at a contradictory opinion about that...?

By the way, the animals in Garden of Eden, prior to the fall didn't eat each other, and everything including the animals in the Garden of Eden, or paradise, or heaven; the "animals" are representative of spirit creatures in a spiritual realm, prior to the fall, and being cast out of (or down), out of paradise/heaven/spirit realm where everything represents something else, but in the spirit, not in the flesh...

Sin and Death were meant to be in the middle of the fathers overall plan, the Son wasn't made aware of this, till he came to us as a man... And from then to now, he knows as much as the Father knows...

God Bless!

GBU2

But what is the evidence that this is the case? The scriptural evidence is only valid on a certain interpretation and not necessarily so. The evidence that we have points to the death of many animals and plants over many more than 6000 odd years.

Is the death of plants really any different to the death of an animal? If so why is death accepted for plants and not animals?

What about the millions of death events that occur necessarily (when it doesn't occur as per design, cancer is the result) in every animal at a cellular level every second of every day?

What non-plant things did bacteria (small animals that vastly out number populations of larger animals) that eat other bacteria eat when they ate only vegetables?

Animals are provided with reproductive organs and devices, and are able to reproduce at high rates. If no animal was ever intended to die once having been created, what is the purpose of reproduction?

....and so on and so forth.

The sort of thinking that is being put forward here is just the sort of thing of which Augustine wrote:

"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men."

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

The law of entropy had to exist in order to digest plants and for the universe to operate at all.

CH320: Life deteriorating

I've come to the conclusion that entropy must be the most fundamental force in the universe. I can imagine what would happen if there were no gravity, or if the subatomic interactions were changed, but imagining a world without entropy stretches the mind immensely. Life, itself, runs on entropy.

Entropy is divergence. Whatever things are now, they will not be in the future. It's like buying a nice new car: it will only be "perfect" until you drive it out of the lot for the first time. A world without entropy is one where the theoretical ideals are a reality, and random changes tend to drive things toward a central point (or points), rather than away from it. It would require there to be such a thing as an ideal horse, or an ideal car, which is a matter of opinion, in this case God's. In the beginning, God spoke his ideas into existence, and then he spoke his opinion about them ("It is good"). By making that statement of opinion, he standardized an ideal point, and if entropy did not exist, then he just made a point of convergence toward which things would tend to gravitate. The perfect car would not tend to change in all directions radiating outward from its point of origin, but it would tend to erode back to a perfect car if some non-random, deliberate action happened to change it away from that state (one wonders how it would run if there were no entropy).

But...if the world did not have entropy, then all life would have to be engineered completely differently. The change is so fundamental that it would be easier to say that Adam and Eve passed through a portal to a different universe entirely when they left their Paradise and entered this semi-hell. It's easier to imagine turning a clean slate and starting over than to try to re-engineer what was there already. In the same way that the second death of going to Hell is not so much a transformation of the current world as it is entering a new one, so, also, the banishment from Paradise was not the destruction of Paradise so much as it was leaving that place for another. Our fossils will not be found in Hell, and Paradise's remains, whatever they were, will not be seen here.

So, what of digestion? My answer is simply that while one place has parallels to the other, they are not the same. We will never know eternal fire here, as Paradise will never know death. While we use the same words for both, it is only the result of a limited vocabulary, which is the result of limited understanding. The words are the same, but they describe things that we cannot conceive. We cannot hope to conceive, because we know of nothing but a world where entropy and sin are the most fundamental of all forces. Digestion in paradise is not at all what it is here.

It's a metaphysical argument, though. Anyone not inclined to believe it will get their wish. It would take an abstract thinker to accept it, and a strictly material thinker to reject it. I always was in love with abstraction.

 

[Neogaia777]

GBU2

But what is the evidence that this is the case? The scriptural evidence is only valid on a certain interpretation and not necessarily so. The evidence that we have points to the death of many animals and plants over many more than 6000 odd years.

Is the death of plants really any different to the death of an animal? If so why is death accepted for plants and not animals?

What about the millions of death events that occur necessarily (when it doesn't occur as per design, cancer is the result) in every animal at a cellular level every second of every day?

What non-plant things did bacteria (small animals that vastly out number populations of larger animals) that eat other bacteria eat when they ate only vegetables?

Animals are provided with reproductive organs and devices, and are able to reproduce at high rates. If no animal was ever intended to die once having been created, what is the purpose of reproduction?

....and so on and so forth.

The sort of thinking that is being put forward here is just the sort of thing of which Augustine wrote:

"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men."

You know the length of one of God's days?, whose days might not even be measured by time?, not being bound to time", perhaps only using the concept of days, to try and describe and explain that other realm or type of reality to us, where time doesn't exist or is at the very least, measured differently...?

The easiest way to put this, is to use the word literal, only if you define literal, as this realm, and not anything to do with the other... Anyhow, the simplest way to say this is that "Literally", there was no actual Garden of Eden, or actual animals, or actual plants, rocks, trees, nor even days, ect... Only if you define literal as pertaining to this realm only (which is actually wrong, but, as we understand the term literal, anyway)...

God Bless!

 

[Anguspure]

You know the length of one of God's days?, whose days might not even be measured by time?, not being bound to time", perhaps only using the concept of days, to try and describe and explain that other realm or type of reality to us, where time doesn't exist or is at the very least, measured differently...?

No problem. This is addressed by relativity and is the sort of thinking Nachmanides used to work out that while it is literally true that God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days, this time is also 15 billion years depending on your frame of reference Age of the Universe.

The easiest way to put this, is to use the word literal, only if you define literal, as this realm, and not anything to do with the other... Anyhow, the simplest way to say this is that "Literally", there was no actual Garden of Eden, or actual animals, or actual plants, rocks, trees, nor even days, ect... Only if you define literal as pertaining to this realm only (which is actually wrong, but, as we understand the term literal, anyway)...

God Bless!

If something literally exists or happens, then it really exists or happens in any world and removing it to some spiritual realm does not make it a metaphor. It simply exists or happens literally somewhere else. Metaphorical existence is non-existence except as a metaphor in the mind.

 

[Blade]

Hmm everything God made is alive. And its ALWAYS good or very good perfect. Jesus told them if you stop them from shouting praises things like that then the rocks will cry out. Cry out? Rocks? We find God telling Israel if you do the same kind of sins then the EARTH will spit you out. Then if my people which are called by my name shall? Then goes on to say.. HEAL the land?

Anyway.. as it is clearly written God gave ALL the work of His hands . this earth to man. For Satan told Jesus this was given to me, handed over. That should teach us SO much about the enemy. A white lie (no such thing) a tiny lie.. the speed limit 65..do we go 70? Stop sign.. do we run them sometimes? If GOD says told us to do something and we dont its sin. And as TINY SMALL as that sin in our eyes might be Satan can use that to expand greatly. All Adam and Eve did was take a bite. They never agreed or signed anything..yet.. they gave EVERYTHING God gave them.. to Satan. So God says.. Satan is the GOD of this world. Now you know.

So this is what SIN has done. So God took an innocent and killed it.. for shadow of what was to come. Sad for me.. something INNOCENT always had to DIE so I can live free from Sin

 

[Neogaia777]

Hmm everything God made is alive. And its ALWAYS good or very good perfect. Jesus told them if you stop them from shouting praises things like that then the rocks will cry out. Cry out? Rocks? We find God telling Israel if you do the same kind of sins then the EARTH will spit you out. Then if my people which are called by my name shall? Then goes on to say.. HEAL the land?

Anyway.. as it is clearly written God gave ALL the work of His hands . this earth to man. For Satan told Jesus this was given to me, handed over. That should teach us SO much about the enemy. A white lie (no such thing) a tiny lie.. the speed limit 65..do we go 70? Stop sign.. do we run them sometimes? If GOD says told us to do something and we dont its sin. And as TINY SMALL as that sin in our eyes might be Satan can use that to expand greatly. All Adam and Eve did was take a bite. They never agreed or signed anything..yet.. they gave EVERYTHING God gave them.. to Satan. So God says.. Satan is the GOD of this world. Now you know.

So this is what SIN has done. So God took an innocent and killed it.. for shadow of what was to come. Sad for me.. something INNOCENT always had to DIE so I can live free from Sin

What about where Jesus says after he was resurrected that all power and authority has been given to him in heaven AND ON OR OVER THE EARTH also, and how by believing in him and by the use of his name, we also have this authority as well...?

God Bless!

 

[1213]

Interesting. Can you comment on my post? When I exegete the Scriptures I come out with a differing opinion. I'm just interested in a counter exegesis and how this conclusion is supported.
Thanks, Patrick
Death Before Sin!

I agree that pain and suffering and death has been long with all creation. But I think no scripture says directly that it was originally so. However, I think animals and plants are not same as people and probably it could be that they died also before the sin entered world. just don’t think there is scripture that directly says so and that is why it may be that there was no death, suffering or pain before sin.

 

[jhwatts]

Just a thought. Sin had to exist before mans fall. If sin initiated at the time of mans fall, that is when they actually disobeyed God by partaking of the fruit. Then Eve's temptation from the serpent must not of been a sinful act.

 

[Anguspure]

Just a thought. Sin had to exist before mans fall. If sin initiated at the time of mans fall, that is when they actually disobeyed God by partaking of the fruit. Then Eve's temptation from the serpent must not of been a sinful act.

At what point does temptation become sin? If we consider that repentance involves a wilful change of mind away from sin, then perhaps in the opposite direction, sin takes place during the temptation process at the point when the person being tempted willingly turns their mind towards the tempting act.

What we see in Adam and Eve before they ate was something similar to Christ Jesus where the hearts and minds of these people were all willingly and freely in sync with the perfect will of God the Father in perfect relationship with Him.

It was when they (also willingly) stepped outside this created order and changed their minds about Him that they fell.

 

[jhwatts]

I think a line needs to be drawn between the act of sin and subduing to the temptation. The temptation act being performed by the serpent is a sin he is liable for. Man's sin is a result of their submission to the serpents temptation. They are two sinful acts taking place here.

 

[Anguspure]

I think a line needs to be drawn between the act of sin and subduing to the temptation. The temptation act being performed by the serpent is a sin he is liable for. Man's sin is a result of their submission to the serpents temptation. They are two sinful acts taking place here.

So you are correct. Sin existed in the life of the serpent before the sin of mankind was entered into. Now given that sin and death go hand in hand; do you suppose death also existed before the temptation of Adam?

 

[jhwatts]

Yes, since sin did exist prior to the fall it follows that death would also.

Secondly I don’t believe a Biblical basis exist to show it didn’t. In particular, with plants or animals.

For example, often people recite Romans 5:12 as evidence on no death of any kind prior to the fall. If you read the entire chapter of Romans 5 you will see that the subject that is being discussed applies to man only. We do not see the words plant, animal, beast, etc. in any of these verses. People imply that verse twelve also includes plants or animals but it doesn’t say that any place in the chapter. Also if the context of the scripture applies to plants and animal, we must assume plants and animals are also included in the remedy of the death from the fall. See Romans 5:15. We know the blood of Christ was not shed for plants and animals too.

We can carry this to other scriptures too. The Bible is specific. It is called the fall of man not the fall of all living kind.

 

[Neogaia777]

Somewhere in Genesis, the transition from a reality that was sin and death free, a transition was made from that kind of reality to this one we now know of...

It could have been at the fall, in the garden, after the flood of Noah, some say, near the end of Genesis, and at the beginning of Exodus with Moses who wrote those books...

Some think a or perhaps several transitions of different types reality were made and occurred at all of these points... And that what was real before those points can only be described metaphorically to us in this current reality...

God Bless!