Death Before Sin!

[John 1720]

I believe everything was good and there were no sickness and death before sin entered world. And I have no reason to think otherwise.

Interesting. Can you comment on my post? When I exegete the Scriptures I come out with a differing opinion. I'm just interested in a counter exegesis and how this conclusion is supported.
Thanks, Patrick
Death Before Sin!

 

[Shea Rodriguez]

One more thing to add to this... while I included "plants" as life in my post here, upon reflection perhaps I should not. God gave the plants for what? For food... which means food is what they are EVEN IF the modern lens through which we look defines them as life. God said they were food.... so, if a grass grazer did pull up roots, he ate food not took life. And even then what is life? If he ate it, digested it, and then excreted it as fertilizer and that was the foundation for more plants, then this is a cycle of LIFE not death.

It was God who gave skins to Adam and Eve to clothe themselves. It seems that there was a blood sacrifice for their sin. There is no evidence of blood sacrifice until after the original sin, but it continued up until the perfect sacrifice gave His life for the sin of all mankind.

 

[Ken Rank]

It was God who gave skins to Adam and Eve to clothe themselves. It seems that there was a blood sacrifice for their sin. There is no evidence of blood sacrifice until after the original sin, but it continued up until the perfect sacrifice gave His life for the sin of all mankind.

"It seems" is the key seeing the text doesn't tell us that. Seeing however that much of the law was known long before Sinai, I wouldn't be surprised if this were true. So, my point would stand, there was no death before sin.

 

[Ken Rank]

I trust God is good and will one day destroy death. But I also believe death was there from the very Beginning; else why would Paul write:

• Romans 8:20-22

Because Adam was given dominion over all of creation and when he fell then all of creation fell. That is why it awaits its redemption as well... because it exists in a fallen state thanks to the sin of the one who had dominion over it. If you are interested, I spoke on this with a little more detail in this thread, here.

In fact there are implicit inferences to death in Genesis. For one, Adam perfectly understood what death meant when God issues him this warning:

• Genesis 2:17
• Genesis 3:3

Adam knew what God shared with him. Therefore, you have just as good a case saying, "God told Adam what death was" as you have saying, "Adam knew what death was because he witnessed it." God was Adam's source for all understanding. It was "as if" Adam was plugged into God and when Adam sinned, he unplugged and had to determine for himself between good and evil.

Secondly look what God says to the devil who lied to Eve.

• Genesis 3:14

The implication being that cattle were already subject to the curse of death being temporal only.

Or, the implication is that the cattle were below Adam and now the serpent below them. God is the author of life, not death... death is the result of sin, the wage of sin, not a creation of God in that sense of creative things.

Adam and his progeny fell into the corruption of sin, which made him and his progeny thereafter subject to corruption. Corruption and Everlasting are antithetical to one another. Then Jesus came and overcame that curse of death and we are born again, not as we are born in the flesh to Adam. We are reborn by the Spirit into Christ.

• John 3:6
• John 1:16
• John 3:3
• 1 Peter 1:3
• 1 Peter 1:23
• 1 Peter 2:2

Born again in the spirit, yes... but also changed in the flesh as well. Not today, but we will be changed, Yeshua earned the right to perfect and change and simply hasn't applied that yet.

 

[Greg Merrill]

I believe it's to do with the Old Age Earth, and the Fossil Record etc... Where as Young Earth say Death entered after Adam Sinned which effected all of creation.

This is where I was reading/stumbled across this theory! No Death Before the Fall - A Young Earth Problem

BTW, I'm not sure weather I believe in Young Earth or Old. I'm in the middle.

I believe in young, for what it is worth.

 

[disciple1]

As a Christian of 10 years now I'm always studying into Theology, Philosophy, etc... So I'm always learning something new and expanding my knowledge of God. I've recently come across something rather troubling and it's been testing my faith.

That is that Animals where suffering before Sin entered into the world. God said that everything was "Very Good", but how could God think that the suffering of Animals, Cancer, viruses, etc... within these Animals is "Very Good"? That means that death must have been apart of Gods original plan. Furthermore, God find's it "Very Good" where as I find it morally wrong and despicable that God would allow this torture. God gives us empathy for these Creatures he put's on the Earth but then would enable this barbaric cycle of death and suffering to occur between the different species of Animals that eat each other. I can't get my head around this and feel a huge contradiction in my heart about God!

I'm very aware that prior to Adam's sin/disobedience death was limited to plant life. Plants where not given life by God, as I understand.

Please help me to understand, Thanks!

That is that Animals where suffering before Sin entered into the world

Where does the bible say this?

 

[Greg Merrill]

The law of entropy had to exist in order to digest plants and for the universe to operate at all.

CH320: Life deteriorating

Not sure that statement is true, seeing all things are possible with God (Mark 10:27), and that the skeptic says "All things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation." 2 Peter 3:4; to which Peter responds "For this they willingly are ignorant" or as Kent Hovind used to say "Dumb on purpose." Just because we have a law of entropy now, doesn't mean it was active before the fall.

 

[Greg Merrill]

You are right in that I think of death as torture, I guess it would stem from animals eating each other due to food cycle. I find that for some reason it's just seems a contradiction of God's moral character that such could take place. I've always believed that Death entered after Adams Sin, and therefore it corrupted all of creation including the Animals, which caused the carnivorous activity.

The first death of an animal, that I know of, would have been after Adam's sin, when God provided animal skins to Adam and Eve to hide their nakedness. This and all the animal (innocent animals) sacrifices, as well as the suffering of Christ on the cross was not because God was bad, but because sin was bad. It was to show us how bad sin was, horrible, and that the penalty of that sin was horrible as well. We need to have a right understanding of the horribleness of sin to understand the horribleness we see in this present world.

 

[HereIStand]

As a Christian of 10 years now I'm always studying into Theology, Philosophy, etc... So I'm always learning something new and expanding my knowledge of God. I've recently come across something rather troubling and it's been testing my faith.

That is that Animals where suffering before Sin entered into the world. God said that everything was "Very Good", but how could God think that the suffering of Animals, Cancer, viruses, etc... within these Animals is "Very Good"? That means that death must have been apart of Gods original plan. Furthermore, God find's it "Very Good" where as I find it morally wrong and despicable that God would allow this torture. God gives us empathy for these Creatures he put's on the Earth but then would enable this barbaric cycle of death and suffering to occur between the different species of Animals that eat each other. I can't get my head around this and feel a huge contradiction in my heart about God!

I'm very aware that prior to Adam's sin/disobedience death was limited to plant life. Plants where not given life by God, as I understand.

Please help me to understand, Thanks!

Good questions. Our struggle for existence now is a result sin. Before sin entered the world, there was no struggle. Attempts to Christianize survival of the fittest have been tried and found wanting. Simply believe the creation account in Genesis. God Bless.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Not sure that statement is true, seeing all things are possible with God (Mark 10:27), and that the skeptic says "All things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation." 2 Peter 3:4; to which Peter responds "For this they willingly are ignorant" or as Kent Hovind used to say "Dumb on purpose." Just because we have a law of entropy now, doesn't mean it was active before the fall.

Goddidit. End of discussion. Nice.

 

[Anguspure]

Hi sparky,

Well, you did ask for help understanding and so I'll throw in my two cents.

When God said that everything was very good, it was within 2-3 days of living creatures or plant life having been created. Likely hadn't been any death in that short a period of time. This idea that you have of animals suffering is based on how the earth operates today. You really have absolutely no understanding, outside of what God's word tells us, of how the earth operated 6,000 years ago. Further, you speak of death as 'torture'. Why is that?

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

The problem with this view is that many creatures have a life cycle of mere hours (bacteria) or only a day (may flies) and the whole biological world depends on a foundational cycle of life and death for it to operate.

 

[Greg Merrill]

The problem with this view is that many creatures have a life cycle of mere hours (bacteria) or only a day (may flies) and the whole biological world depends on a foundational cycle of life and death for it to operate.

The problem with this answer is that too many people try to understand all of what the Bible says by equating all of it with what exists today. Not everything that existed or didn't exist at the very beginning of the creation of the earth is the same as it is today. 2 Peter 3:6-7. Wishing you well.

 

[Anguspure]

The problem with this answer is that too many people try to understand all of what the Bible says by equating all of it with what exists today. Not everything that existed or didn't exist at the very beginning of the creation of the earth is the same as it is today. 2 Peter 3:6-7. Wishing you well.

I appreciate this but it is also impossible to conceive of a biological world that functions without the cycle that we observe. Perhaps the life and death cycle, as pertains to the physical world, is thus good as God created it.
It is interesting that Adam and Eve were given the Tree of Life to eat of in the garden. Why did they need this if as biological creatures they were not subject to death without eating of it?

 

[Greg Merrill]

I appreciate this but it is also impossible to conceive of a biological world that functions without the cycle that we observe. Perhaps the life and death cycle, as pertains to the physical world, is thus good as God created it.
It is interesting that Adam and Eve were given the Tree of Life to eat of in the garden. Why did they need this if as biological creatures they were not subject to death without eating of it?

In regards to conceiving a biological world that functions (without death) different than the one we presently have consider the coming millennial kingdom and the new earth. In the new earth especially, the curse of Genesis 3:17 will be lifted, Revelation 22:3. See also Isaiah 66:20 for a new length in lifespans. See Isaiah 11:6 "lion laying down with the lamb" passage for the ways things will be different from today in the Millennial kingdom.
In regards to your statements "It is interesting that Adam and Eve were given the Tree of Life to eat of in the garden. Why did they need this if as biological creatures they were not subject to death without eating of it?"
The Bible doesn't say "they 'NEEDED' it" and they didn't to stay alive, for they would have always stayed physically alive if they had eaten from it. That was still true after they sinned, and that was the problem, to eat of it and never die as a sinner. We don't want to live forever as sinners. We want to die, leave that sinful, aging, decaying, body, so that we can be free spiritually, and one day have a new, incorruptible, immortal body.

 

[miamited]

The problem with this view is that many creatures have a life cycle of mere hours (bacteria) or only a day (may flies) and the whole biological world depends on a foundational cycle of life and death for it to operate.

Hi anguspure,

That is true, today these creatures have lives of mere moments. Have you any evidence to provide that such was true 6,000 years ago or is it just your assumption that everything works today exactly like it did on the day that God finished his creating and said that everything was very good?

Friend, there are a lot of little minutiae arguments that we can throw out, based on what we see in the world today to deny much of what God has told us. For example, we cannot, based on any evidence that we can provide today believe the story of Jesus' conception. We cannot, based on the very best and finest evidence that we have today, believe that the Red Sea parted and the water stood as a wall on both the right hand and the left hand of the Hebrews. We cannot, based on any evidence available to us today, believe that the sun stood still in the sky or that it was pitch black in all of Egypt for three days while the rest of the world enjoyed fairly normal tours of daylight and nighttime. Finally, we obviously cannot, based on any evidence that we have today believe that God created all of the heavenly bodies within the span of a single rotation of the earth, or that He created all that is, in the span of six such rotations.

So, you can believe what the natural sciences tell you is the truth, or you can believe what God has told you is the truth. That's the choice that we are faced with.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[Steve Petersen]

So, you can believe what the natural sciences tell you is the truth, or you can believe what God has told you is the truth. That's the choice that we are faced with. God bless you,
In Christ, ted

'Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?

 

[Anguspure]

In regards to conceiving a biological world that functions (without death) different than the one we presently have consider the coming millennial kingdom and the new earth. In the new earth especially, the curse of Genesis 3:17 will be lifted, Revelation 22:3. See also Isaiah 66:20 for a new length in lifespans. See Isaiah 11:6 "lion laying down with the lamb" passage for the ways things will be different from today in the Millennial kingdom.

Yes, I know the apparent biblical stance. Its all very well putting forward a particular interpretation of some scripture, but how would this non-death world actually work? The whole biological cycle, the whole planet, the very way in which we get the oxygen that creatures breathe and the plants that they eat rely on the physical death cycle.

The idea of a Lion laying down with a lamb is one of good animal husbandry and speaks of a world in which creation itself is correctly managed under the dominion of the Son of Man. We could achieve this very different state of affairs in this world now (under the leadership of Christ) if we would all actually live by His Spirit.
The passage doesn't, however, lead me to believe that the dietary requirement of a creature created to be a carnivore have been modified.

Lengthening of human life spans (achieved by eating of the Tree of Life) to eternity does not necessitate a complete reversal of biological norms.

The curse of Genesis relates to sin and death in relation to Adam and Eve and the huge negative effect that this has on the very universe itself. But to suggest that this brings a direct change of such a huge magnitude to the underpinnings of the whole physical world is, I think, unwarranted.

 

[Greg Merrill]

'Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?

My eyes tell me there are little black things in my swimming pool. There are not. These are floaters on my eyes. Research that if you don't know what eye floaters are. My eyes sometimes tell me there is water on the highway in the desert. No. Mirages. My eyes tell me the moon is traveling west across the sky. No. It is the rotation of the earth that makes that appear so. Shall I go on and on what my eyes tell me that is not so? Wishing you well.

 

[Anguspure]

Hi anguspure,

That is true, today these creatures have lives of mere moments. Have you any evidence to provide that such was true 6,000 years ago or is it just your assumption that everything works today exactly like it did on the day that God finished his creating and said that everything was very good?

Friend, there are a lot of little minutiae arguments that we can throw out, based on what we see in the world today to deny much of what God has told us. For example, we cannot, based on any evidence that we can provide today believe the story of Jesus' conception. We cannot, based on the very best and finest evidence that we have today, believe that the Red Sea parted and the water stood as a wall on both the right hand and the left hand of the Hebrews. We cannot, based on any evidence available to us today, believe that the sun stood still in the sky or that it was pitch black in all of Egypt for three days while the rest of the world enjoyed fairly normal tours of daylight and nighttime. Finally, we obviously cannot, based on any evidence that we have today believe that God created all of the heavenly bodies within the span of a single rotation of the earth, or that He created all that is, in the span of six such rotations.

So, you can believe what the natural sciences tell you is the truth, or you can believe what God has told you is the truth. That's the choice that we are faced with.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

I cannot conceive of a way of harmonizing this particular interpretation of some scriptures with what I observe.

The natural world is something that I observe with my own eyes, so the natural sciences don't really need to tell me much at all, and the passages put forward don't necessarily say what some people make them say so I am in a position that leads me to lean towards the observation and wait for a coherent and complete explanation of the opposing view before I allow myself to be swayed by it.

The examples you give of the miracles are no drama. They are direct interventions of the Creator in his creation and no different from the "miracles" that you and I perform every day when we intervene in the world that we inhabit. Also they may or may not involve God using one of His natural laws and creations to carry out the miracle (such as a near pass of a large meteor causing a gyroscopic wobble of the earth and giving the impression of the sun stopped in the sky).

But what is being proposed by stating that biological death ceases is far more fundamental to the created biological order than any of these things, and more akin to proposing that gravity or entropy will cease to exist.

Now since the people here are so very confident in this interpretation of scripture that nothing will ever die in the new heavens and the new earth, and that this is the way in which this world was originally created to operate, I am asking whether anybody has actually thought this through in any real way.

 

[Neogaia777]

As a Christian of 10 years now I'm always studying into Theology, Philosophy, etc... So I'm always learning something new and expanding my knowledge of God. I've recently come across something rather troubling and it's been testing my faith.

That is that Animals where suffering before Sin entered into the world. God said that everything was "Very Good", but how could God think that the suffering of Animals, Cancer, viruses, etc... within these Animals is "Very Good"? That means that death must have been apart of Gods original plan. Furthermore, God find's it "Very Good" where as I find it morally wrong and despicable that God would allow this torture. God gives us empathy for these Creatures he put's on the Earth but then would enable this barbaric cycle of death and suffering to occur between the different species of Animals that eat each other. I can't get my head around this and feel a huge contradiction in my heart about God!

I'm very aware that prior to Adam's sin/disobedience death was limited to plant life. Plants where not given life by God, as I understand.

Please help me to understand, Thanks!

Animals did not suffer nor did they eat each other, prior to sin and death caused by us entered the world... How did you arrive at a contradictory opinion about that...?

By the way, the animals in Garden of Eden, prior to the fall didn't eat each other, and everything including the animals in the Garden of Eden, or paradise, or heaven; the "animals" are representative of spirit creatures in a spiritual realm, prior to the fall, and being cast out of (or down), out of paradise/heaven/spirit realm where everything represents something else, but in the spirit, not in the flesh...

Sin and Death were meant to be in the middle of the fathers overall plan, the Son wasn't made aware of this, till he came to us as a man... And from then to now, he knows as much as the Father knows...

God Bless!