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Death-bed proselytizing

South Bound

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CF defines Christianity by the Nicene Creed. Let's take that as the gospel.

Why? It's a creed, not the Gospel.

So most people have heard the gospel IMO.

But how would you know? You're an atheist who has show by your posts here that you don't know what the Gospel is. So how would you know that most people have heard it?

And, even if they have heard it, so what? It's not a magic chant.

The Bible doesn't tell us to stop preaching the Gospel just because somebody may have heard it.
 
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cloudyday2

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But how would you know? You're an atheist who has show by your posts here that you don't know what the Gospel is. So how would you know that most people have heard it?

And, even if they have heard it, so what? It's not a magic chant.

The Bible doesn't tell us to stop preaching the Gospel just because somebody may have heard it.

A couple of questions to clarify:
- if you know the person has heard the gospel before, you would preach it again before death?
- if the person has heard the gospel before from you, you would preach it again before death?

I understand why many Christians might think this issue is important enough to risk upsetting a person who is facing death when it decides between heaven and hell (in many sects).
 
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South Bound

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A couple of questions to clarify:
- if you know the person has heard the gospel before, you would preach it again before death?
- if the person has heard the gospel before from you, you would preach it again before death?

Yes.
 
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ViaCrucis

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That's surprising to me. :confused:

I'm sure there are many people (including me) who don't know some important details of the history, but hasn't almost everybody heard the thing about Jesus forgiving us of our sins if we ask and so forth? A person doesn't need to know all the details to make an informed decision against being a Christian IMO.

One of the things I've noticed in the 13 or so years since I started really looking into theology and the history of Christianity is that a lot of Christians, not just "nominal" Christians but regular church-going Christians, were a lot like I was before I started really looking into things. I grew up in a thoroughly Christian environment, church every Sunday, and mid-week services as well, attended Christian schools from K - 8th grade, in high school I attended two different youth groups, from my own church and also from the church most of my friends attended. I had a good knowledge of the stories from the Bible, and all that. But what I lacked was a real education about my religion.

I realized this when I was about 19-ish(?) when I started wanting to learn more and came to a startling realization while reading my Bible to discover that rather consistently throughout the New Testament it talks about the Christian hope being a future resurrection from the dead. At no point had anyone talked about this, or certainly not that I could recall. When I spoke to others, including my father, I just received a confused look. When I decided to see if I was maybe just misinterpreting what I was reading by looking at what Christians have historically said for the last two thousand years, I discovered that it's what all Christians have said for the last two thousand years.

So how come I had been taught that the Christian hope is, when I die, depart from the world as a disembodied soul into Heaven and spend eternity as a bodiless spirit?

It's because this, for some reason, is what many churches teach, it's part of the narrative: Believe in Jesus and go to heaven when you die, don't and go to hell when you die.

What I began to notice was that there's a kind of "popular religion", what many in the Church and culture receive whether explicitly or implicitly through a kind of osmosis. I think about some of those old Tom & Jerry cartoons, in at least one there's an escalator going up into heaven and one going down into hell--heaven was that place with pearly gates and streets of gold, the departed spend their eternity there as part of the choir eternal; hell was that place "down there" fiery caverns where horned devils with pitchforks poke and prod the damned for eternity. Those images, those themes, are part of the popular religion, but they don't represent anything remotely like what Christianity--in all its many different denominations and traditions--has said over the last two millennia. And this isn't just a denominational thing, every mainstream Christian church, as part of its official confession of faith, teaches there is a future resurrection of the dead--Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, all of them.

And it's not like something like the resurrection of the dead is just a small little part of the Christian religion, it's at the very heart of the Christian religion, the quintessential confession of the Christian religion is that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead. Resurrection isn't just something tacked on the side, it's the very core of the religion. In his first letter to the Corinthians St. Paul says that if the dead do not rise then Christ Himself isn't risen, but because Christ is risen we confidently believe the dead will rise on the last day. The one doesn't exist without the other; Christ is risen, and so we too shall rise; if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ Himself did not rise and Christianity is a completely worthless religion.

So very often there's a major divide that exists, between popular religion and Christian religion. What is popularly believed and what is actually confessed.

Indeed, I would say that if someone says they have heard the Christian message of the Gospel and they defined it as something like: "Jesus died for our sins, ask Him to forgive you, go to Heaven." Then they have about as robust an understanding of the Christian religion as someone saying of Islam, "Muhammad penned the Qur'an"; in that it's not entirely false, but it's seeing only one or two brush strokes of the painting at best and being misinformed at worst. (For example, Muhammad didn't pen the Qur'an, his followers wrote down what Muhammad recalled as having been revealed to him, according to Islam Muhammad himself was illiterate.)

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Hospes

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A couple of questions to clarify:
- if you know the person has heard the gospel before, you would preach it again before death?
- if the person has heard the gospel before from you, you would preach it again before death?

I understand why many Christians might think this issue is important enough to risk upsetting a person who is facing death when it decides between heaven and hell (in many sects).

I would do my best to, with sensitivity and love for the person, present the Gospel again in hope God uses it to change their heart and draw them to himself. In presenting the gospel, I am not looking for the person to make a move toward faith as much as I am looking for God to give the person the motivation to move toward faith in Christ. It's an important distinction.
 
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cloudyday2

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I would do my best to, with sensitivity and love for the person, present the Gospel again in hope God uses it to change their heart and draw them to himself. In presenting the gospel, I am not looking for the person to make a move toward faith as much as I am looking for God to give the person the motivation to move toward faith in Christ. It's an important distinction.

o.k. that is a good point. If you are chatting with the dying person and he/she worries about hell or whatnot, then you can discuss the gospel and have a better chance of success too. :)
 
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cloudyday2

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...
I realized this when I was about 19-ish(?) when I started wanting to learn more and came to a startling realization while reading my Bible to discover that rather consistently throughout the New Testament it talks about the Christian hope being a future resurrection from the dead.
...
So how come I had been taught that the Christian hope is, when I die, depart from the world as a disembodied soul into Heaven and spend eternity as a bodiless spirit?

It's because this, for some reason, is what many churches teach, it's part of the narrative: Believe in Jesus and go to heaven when you die, don't and go to hell when you die.
...
And this isn't just a denominational thing, every mainstream Christian church, as part of its official confession of faith, teaches there is a future resurrection of the dead--Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, all of them.
...
So very often there's a major divide that exists, between popular religion and Christian religion. What is popularly believed and what is actually confessed.

Indeed, I would say that if someone says they have heard the Christian message of the Gospel and they defined it as something like: "Jesus died for our sins, ask Him to forgive you, go to Heaven." Then they have about as robust an understanding of the Christian religion as someone saying of Islam, "Muhammad penned the Qur'an"; in that it's not entirely false, but it's seeing only one or two brush strokes of the painting at best and being misinformed at worst. (For example, Muhammad didn't pen the Qur'an, his followers wrote down what Muhammad recalled as having been revealed to him, according to Islam Muhammad himself was illiterate.)

Crypto, I only quoted pieces of your post, because it seemed too long to quote in its entirety. I hope I didn't distort your meaning with my edits.

Maybe I will start another thread on this topic you raised, because it might be interesting. I just read the wikipedia article on "Soul Sleep". The issues that soul sleep and other theologies try to resolve are related to this pending physical resurrection at the second coming that you highlighted.

Back to this topic, I don't see how a physical resurrection matters to a non-believer. If anything, it makes Christianity seem harder to believe IMO. The idea of all those billions of physical bodies reassembling and lining-up before Jesus for the day of judgment is hard to visualize.

Most non-believers are waiting for evidence to sway them IMO.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Crypto, I only quoted pieces of your post, because it seemed too long to quote in its entirety. I hope I didn't distort your meaning with my edits.

Maybe I will start another thread on this topic you raised, because it might be interesting. I just read the wikipedia article on "Soul Sleep". The issues that soul sleep and other theologies try to resolve are related to this pending physical resurrection at the second coming that you highlighted.

Back to this topic, I don't see how a physical resurrection matters to a non-believer. If anything, it makes Christianity seem harder to believe IMO. The idea of all those billions of physical bodies reassembling and lining-up before Jesus for the day of judgment is hard to visualize.

Most non-believers are waiting for evidence to sway them IMO.

For what it's worth in my post I wasn't trying to say that "most people haven't really heard the Gospel, so we need to proselytize the dying" only wanting to address my observation that quite a lot of Christians are often very deeply uninformed about the very basic tenets of their religion. It's my criticism of a fundamental lack of good religious education, churches not doing their job for the people in the church.

The issue of resurrection may not matter to a non-believer, and yes it was as unbelievable two thousand years ago as it was today. But I think what we as Christians understand the Gospel to be certainly does matter.

Many preach "Jesus died for you so you can make a decision to follow God and then go to Heaven when you die." They preach that as the Gospel, I simply do not believe that's the Gospel.

The Gospel is that the Word, God Himself, has become flesh and dwelt among us. God became man. And in Christ God is reconciling the whole world to Himself, He will do as He promised and restore all creation. Christ has died and Christ has risen, and in Him He has taken all that is human, brought it through death to life, and calls us to share in His death and resurrection. And He ascended to the right hand of the Father, where He reigns as Lord and King, and at His coming again the dead will be raised, all things will be made new, all creation restored.

The Christian Gospel is not "Hey, a ghost version of you gets to fly up to a magical place in the sky!" it's "See, God is making all things new. Death has been defeated, your sins are forgiven, you have peace with God. You are a child of God by grace, and a sharer in the world to come, death will not be the end for you, death will not be the end for God's creation, He will raise you up, He will renew all things, He is making all things new." That's the Gospel, what God has done, is doing, and will do in and through Christ for the world.

For a non-Christian that may just be one kind of crazy compared to another kind of crazy. But for a Christian getting the Gospel right is the difference between giving someone aspirin or rat poison for their headache.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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cloudyday2

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For what it's worth in my post I wasn't trying to say that "most people haven't really heard the Gospel, so we need to proselytize the dying" only wanting to address my observation that quite a lot of Christians are often very deeply uninformed about the very basic tenets of their religion. It's my criticism of a fundamental lack of good religious education, churches not doing their job for the people in the church.

The issue of resurrection may not matter to a non-believer, and yes it was as unbelievable two thousand years ago as it was today. But I think what we as Christians understand the Gospel to be certainly does matter.

Many preach "Jesus died for you so you can make a decision to follow God and then go to Heaven when you die." They preach that as the Gospel, I simply do not believe that's the Gospel.

The Gospel is that the Word, God Himself, has become flesh and dwelt among us. God became man. And in Christ God is reconciling the whole world to Himself, He will do as He promised and restore all creation. Christ has died and Christ has risen, and in Him He has taken all that is human, brought it through death to life, and calls us to share in His death and resurrection. And He ascended to the right hand of the Father, where He reigns as Lord and King, and at His coming again the dead will be raised, all things will be made new, all creation restored.

The Christian Gospel is not "Hey, a ghost version of you gets to fly up to a magical place in the sky!" it's "See, God is making all things new. Death has been defeated, your sins are forgiven, you have peace with God. You are a child of God by grace, and a sharer in the world to come, death will not be the end for you, death will not be the end for God's creation, He will raise you up, He will renew all things, He is making all things new." That's the Gospel, what God has done, is doing, and will do in and through Christ for the world.

For a non-Christian that may just be one kind of crazy compared to another kind of crazy. But for a Christian getting the Gospel right is the difference between giving someone aspirin or rat poison for their headache.

-CryptoLutheran

I agree with you that most Christians expect to go to heaven in a spiritual form immediately (as time is observed by living relatives). That is what I expected when I used to believe.

Thanks for bringing up the topic, because it is interesting. :) I suspect that a scientific poll would show at least 95% of Christians expect to go to heaven immediately after death.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I agree with you that most Christians expect to go to heaven in a spiritual form immediately (as time is observed by living relatives). That is what I expected when I used to believe.

Thanks for bringing up the topic, because it is interesting. :) I suspect that a scientific poll would show at least 95% of Christians expect to go to heaven immediately after death.

For what it's worth I don't believe in "soul sleep". I do believe that in the time between death and resurrection there is a conscious existence with God, we can call that "going to Heaven" if we want. The point, or my point insofar as I mentioned it anyway, is that this period of resting historically has been understood as temporary, not permanent. Belief that we will be with the Lord at the hour of our death and be with Him until the resurrection is in keeping with Christian teaching; what isn't in keeping with Christian teaching is that there is no resurrection or that this "going to Heaven" is the ultimate hope.

And as far as this intermediate state, between death and resurrection, goes Scripture itself says virtually nothing. Which is why it's been said that Scripture isn't really interested in "life after death" but instead "life after life after death", that is to say, the resurrection.

Indeed if one combs through the entire New Testament you will scarcely run across a book in the New Testament that doesn't mention the resurrection of the dead, but you will have a very hard time finding anything about what happens to people after they die. The closest we get is St. Paul speaking about being absent from the body and present with the Lord, and in the graphic imagery of the Apocalypse there is described the martyrs before God's throne waiting until the end. And that's really about it.

But I don't want to give the wrong idea: I don't subscribe to "soul sleep", I do believe there is some sort of conscious existence at rest with God until the resurrection of the body. I just think that in recent history many modern churches have failed at telling the right story and the whole story, and as such the narrative has often become shallow and superficial.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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