Dear Protestants ... please explain John 1:42

[Buzzard3]

There's much more conclusive evidence for CHRIST being the ROCK upon which the Church is built ... both from the Old and New Testaments.

Both Peter and Paul testify to CHRIST being the CHIEF CORNERSTONE ...

I agree ... and that's precisely why Jesus gave Peter that very same name, "rock" ... Jesus chose Simon to be his earthly representative. Peter the "rock" represents Christ the "rock" ... which in turn is why Jesus gave the "keys" to Peter only.

 

[A_Thinker]

I agree ... and that's precisely why Jesus gave Peter that very same name, "rock" ... Jesus chose Simon to be his earthly representative. Peter the "rock" represents Christ the "rock" ... which in turn is why Jesus gave the "keys" to Peter only.

From a non-Catholic perspective, we all represent Christ as little stones (per 1 Peter 2). Peter is one of the foundation stones, along with the other Apostles and Prophets, ... but Christ is the Chief Cornerstone.

 

[klutedavid]

I'm not aware of any Jewish law that said Gentiles can't fellowship with Jews. Gentiles weren't under Jewish law ... that's why they're called Gentiles.

Btw, it's my understanding that the Jewish "law" to not socialize with Gentiles is not part of law of Moses. It was a man-made custom, designed to keep Jews getting involved in pagan practices, like consuming non-kosha food. No need for Christians to follow man-made laws.

What you said in your post is not correct. Jews and Gentiles cannot associate with one another, marry, and never eat together. The Gentiles are unclean, uncircumcised, filthy sinners, dogs.

Acts 10:28-29
And he said to them, “You yourselves know that it is forbidden for a Jewish man to associate with or visit a foreigner; and yet God has shown me that I am not to call any person unholy or unclean. That is why I came without even raising any objection when I was sent for.”

Isaiah 52:1
Awake, awake, Clothe yourself in your strength, Zion; Clothe yourself with your beautiful garments, Jerusalem, the holy city; For the uncircumcised and the unclean (Gentiles) Will no longer come into you.

Ezekiel 44:7
When you brought in foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in My sanctuary to profane it.

Ezekiel 44:9
‘This is what the Lord God says: “No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, of all the foreigners who are among the sons of Israel, shall enter My sanctuary.'

Ezra 9:11-12
Which thou hast commanded by thy servants the prophets, saying, The land, unto which ye go to possess it, is an unclean land with the filthiness of the people of the lands, with their abominations, which have filled it from one end to another with their uncleanness. Now therefore give not your daughters unto their sons, neither take their daughters unto your sons, nor seek their peace or their wealth for ever: that ye may be strong, and eat the good of the land, and leave it for an inheritance to your children for ever.

Matthew 15:22-28
And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely demon-possessed.” But He did not answer her with even a word. And His disciples came up and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us!” But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” Yet He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” And she said, “Yes, Lord; but please help, for even the dogs feed on the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed at once.

Ephesians 2:11-12
Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands, remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Ephesians 2:14-15
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the hostility, which is the Law composed of commandments expressed in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two one new person, in this way establishing peace.

The Jews were disgusted at how the Gentiles behaved, what they ate, they were uncircumcised, they were unchosen. The Gentiles were filthy sinners and were prohibited from entering the temple in Jerusalem. The Jews saw the Gentiles as dogs.

 

[Buzzard3]

Interesting reply.

How about we dial up the difficulty level.

Are you under the law, i.e., the ten commandments?

Not sure what that has to do with what we were talking about ... but anyways, the moral laws of Moses were never abolished, so Christians are bound to keep the Ten Commandments, which are derived from the two great commandments - loving God and loving one's neighbours.

 

[klutedavid]

Not sure what that has to do with what we were talking about ... but anyways, the moral laws of Moses were never abolished, so Christians are bound to keep the Ten Commandments, which are derived from the two great commandments - loving God and loving one's neighbours.

You are under the law. The ten commandments are the law. This means that you are not under grace.

 

[Buzzard3]

Of course, Peter was siding with legalism.

Here's a simple question for you:

In Gal 2:14, what does Paul mean when he says Peter lives "like a Gentile and not like a Jew"?

 

[klutedavid]

Here's a simple question for you:

In Gal 2:14, what does Paul mean when he says Peter lives "like a Gentile and not like a Jew"?

Peter was a sinner, a transgressor, disobedient to the law.

Luke 5:8
When Simon Peter saw this, he fell at Jesus’ knees. “Go away from me, Lord,” he said, “for I am a sinful man.”

Peter lived exactly the same way as the Gentiles lived, without the law. Peter was disobedient to the law.

The problem for Peter was that the circumcision group enforced the law. Peter had no choice, Peter had to disregard any association with the Gentiles. That is what the law demands, Peter cannot socialize with Gentiles, Peter will definitely not eat with the Gentiles. The Gentiles are dogs.

Yet, Peter would formally require the Gentiles to obey the law of Moses. Peter was a legalist.

Paul was stunned by Peter's behavior towards the Gentiles and Peter's legalism. Peter did not understand what saved by grace meant. So Paul harshly rebuked Peter. If you are saved by grace then, you cannot possibly be saved by obedience to the law also.

It's one or the other Peter!

 

[Buzzard3]

What you said in your post is not correct. Jews and Gentiles cannot associate with one another, marry, and never eat together. The Gentiles are unclean, uncircumcised, filthy sinners, dogs.

Acts 10:28-29
And he said to them, “You yourselves know that it is forbidden for a Jewish man to associate with or visit a foreigner; and yet God has shown me that I am not to call any person unholy or unclean. That is why I came without even raising any objection when I was sent for.”

That verse doesn't prove that the law of Moses says "it is forbidden for a Jewish man to associate with or visit a foreigner". The Jews invented their own laws - known as the Oral law (which became the Mishnah in 200AD) - which they added to the written law of Moses (Torah). The Jews not only came to consider their man- made Oral Law to be just as important as the written laws God gave to Moses on Mt. Sinai, some of their Oral laws actually contradicted or overrode the law of Moses.

In fact, we read in the NT where Jesus criticised the Oral laws that were contrary to the law of Moses (Jesus referred to these Oral laws as "traditions"). Mark 7, for example, describes an instance of Jesus attacking a man-made Jewish law ("the tradition of the elders") that were contrary to the law of Moses. In Mark 7:8-9, Jesus says "You leave the commandment of God (the law of Moses), and hold fast the tradition of men (Jewish Oral law).”
And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God, in order to keep your tradition!"

The Jewish "law" that said "....." in fact appears to contradict the law of Moses:

"The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the Lord your God" (Leviticus 19:34).

Isaiah 52:1
Awake, awake, Clothe yourself in your strength, Zion; Clothe yourself with your beautiful garments, Jerusalem, the holy city; For the uncircumcised and the unclean (Gentiles) Will no longer come into you.

This verse doesn't say or imply that "it is forbidden for a Jewish man to associate with or visit a foreigner".

Ezra 9:11-12
Which thou hast commanded by thy servants the prophets, saying, The land, unto which ye go to possess it, is an unclean land with the filthiness of the people of the lands, with their abominations, which have filled it from one end to another with their uncleanness. Now therefore give not your daughters unto their sons, neither take their daughters unto your sons, nor seek their peace or their wealth for ever: that ye may be strong, and eat the good of the land, and leave it for an inheritance to your children for ever.

This passage relates to intermarriage between Jews and the Gentiles of certain nations, which is prohibited in Deut 7:1-4 (see also 1Kings 11:1-2).

It does not say nor imply that "it is forbidden for a Jewish man to associate with or visit a foreigner."

Ezekiel 44:7
When you brought in foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in My sanctuary to profane it.

Ezekiel 44:9
‘This is what the Lord God says: “No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, of all the foreigners who are among the sons of Israel, shall enter My sanctuary.'

You must be joking. These verses relate to the abomination of allow Gentiles entering the sanctuary of the Jewish TEMPLE (Ezk 44:5) - even most Jews were prohibited from entering the sanctuary.

These verse say nothing whatsoever about Jews associating with Gentiles socially (outside the Temple) and they certainly don't say or imply that "it is forbidden for a Jewish man to associate with or visit a foreigner".

Matthew 15:22-28
And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely demon-possessed.” But He did not answer her with even a word. And His disciples came up and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us!” But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” Yet He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” And she said,

This passage does not say or imply "it is forbidden for a Jewish man to associate with or visit a foreigner." Jesus did not consider non-Jews to be despicable "dogs", for not only did he speak to that Gentile woman, he cured her daughter.

And Jesus and the apostles associated with Gentiles - they visited Gerasene, a Gentile region (Luke 8:26, where Jesus delivered a Gentile man from demons. Jesus spoke to and evangelised the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4).

In Luke 10:25-36, Jesus reminded the Jews that the commandment to "love your neigbour as yourself" includes loving non-Jews (the parable of the Good Samaritan).

Continued in next post ...

 

[Buzzard3]

Ephesians 2:11-12
Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands, remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Ephesians 2:14-15
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the hostility, which is the Law composed of commandments expressed in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two one new person, in this way establishing peace.

How do these verses demonstrate that the law of Moses says "it is forbidden for a Jewish man to associate with or visit a foreigner"? I have no idea.

The Jews were disgusted at how the Gentiles behaved, what they ate, they were uncircumcised, they were unchosen. The Gentiles were filthy sinners and were prohibited from entering the temple in Jerusalem. The Jews saw the Gentiles as dogs.

That may be so, but the so-called law that said "it is forbidden for a Jewish man to associate with or visit a foreigner" appears to be the product of nothing more than Jewish arrogance and pride ... ie, a man-made tradition, not the law of Moses.

 

[Buzzard3]

You are under the law. The ten commandments are the law. This means that you are not under grace.

If you don't keep the commandments, you can lose whatever grace you gained when you came to faith.
Contrary to Protestant myth, Paul did not preach salvation through faith alone, but preached salvation through faith and obedience (works) - eg, in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6, Paul warns believers that their sins (ie, their works) can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus also preached salvation through faith and works - in Rev 2 and 3 for example, when Jesus judges the seven Churches he mentions their "works" eleven times. In John 14:15, Jesus says "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

But this is getting off topic. You seem to disagree with my claim that Christians can practice circumcision and certain other Jewish customs (eg, diet, fasting) if they want to. Christians can practice pagan or Muslim customs too if they want, as long as they are not binding and don't contradict Church teaching. Christians can even invent their own customs too, as long as they are not considered salvific and don't contradict Church teaching.

 

[klutedavid]

If you don't keep the commandments, you can lose whatever grace you gained when you came to faith.

Depends which set of commandments, you think, the apostles are referring to?

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

My two commandments actually grant salvation.

Your ten commandments condemn people to everlasting death.

Contrary to Protestant myth, Paul did not preach salvation through faith alone

I am not a protestant.

Your correct that Paul did not teach faith alone. That was never taught by Paul.

but preached salvation through faith and obedience (works) - eg, in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6, Paul warns believers that their sins (ie, their works) can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of heaven.

Paul taught salvation by grace alone.

Both you and the Protestants have got it wrong.

Romans 3:24
Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

Romans 5:15
But the gracious gift is not like the offense. For if by the offense of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many.

Romans 5:17
For if by the offense of the one, death reigned through the one, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:2
Through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we celebrate in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, since otherwise grace is no longer grace.

How did the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church get it so wrong?

Perhaps you can explain to me how the gospel of grace became a gospel of law and works?

I would love to know?

Jesus also preached salvation through faith and works - in Rev 2 and 3 for example, Jesus mentions "works" thirteen times. In John 14:15, Jesus says "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

We were created for good works but we are not saved by our works. We are saved by grace alone through the instrument of faith.

You will struggle with what I am telling you. If you can lock-on to the difference between; how your saved and perfecting your faith through works. Then you will have unlocked the New Testament. It takes time to see the difference.

You seem to disagree with my claim that Christians can practice circumcision and certain other Jewish customs (eg, diet, fasting) if they want to. Christians can practice pagan or Muslim customs too if they want, as long as they are not binding and don't contradict Church teaching. Christians can even invent their own customs too, as long as they are not considered salvific and don't contradict Church teaching.

If your church teaches anything other than the gospel of grace, as the primary gospel news. Then your church has strayed from the path.

I am telling you the truth.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

 

[klutedavid]

If you don't keep the commandments, you can lose whatever grace you gained when you came to faith.
Contrary to Protestant myth, Paul did not preach salvation through faith alone, but preached salvation through faith and obedience (works) - eg, in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6, Paul warns believers that their sins (ie, their works) can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus also preached salvation through faith and works - in Rev 2 and 3 for example, when Jesus judges the seven Churches he mentions their "works" eleven times. In John 14:15, Jesus says "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

But this is getting off topic. You seem to disagree with my claim that Christians can practice circumcision and certain other Jewish customs (eg, diet, fasting) if they want to. Christians can practice pagan or Muslim customs too if they want, as long as they are not binding and don't contradict Church teaching. Christians can even invent their own customs too, as long as they are not considered salvific and don't contradict Church teaching.

Bump

 

[Buzzard3]

Depends which set of commandments, you think, the apostles are referring to?

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

My two commandments actually grant salvation.

Your ten commandments condemn people to everlasting death.

Which of the Ten Commandments below "condemn people to everlasting death"?

I. I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me.

2. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.

3. Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day.

4. Honor your father and your mother.

5. You shall not kill.

6. You shall not commit adultery.

7. You shall not steal.

8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.

 

[Buzzard3]

Perhaps you can explain to me how the gospel of grace became a gospel of law and works

Paul warns believers in Gal 5:19-21 and 1Cor 6:9-10 that their sins (ie, their transgressions against the law; their works) can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Buzzard3]

Peter was a sinner, a transgressor, disobedient to the law.

Luke 5:8
When Simon Peter saw this, he fell at Jesus’ knees. “Go away from me, Lord,” he said, “for I am a sinful man.”

Peter lived exactly the same way as the Gentiles lived, without the law. Peter was disobedient to the law.

The problem for Peter was that the circumcision group enforced the law. Peter had no choice, Peter had to disregard any association with the Gentiles. That is what the law demands, Peter cannot socialize with Gentiles, Peter will definitely not eat with the Gentiles. The Gentiles are dogs.

Yet, Peter would formally require the Gentiles to obey the law of Moses. Peter was a legalist.

Paul was stunned by Peter's behavior towards the Gentiles and Peter's legalism. Peter did not understand what saved by grace meant. So Paul harshly rebuked Peter. If you are saved by grace then, you cannot possibly be saved by obedience to the law also.

It's one or the other Peter!

So, according to your (Holy Spirit-inspired) interpretation of Galations 2:14, Peter the apostle was a "legalist", obsessed with forcing Jewish and Gentile Christians alike into following the law of Moses ... YET he didn't follow the law of Moses at all himself and in fact lived like a Gentile!!

Fascinating, to say the least.

 

[klutedavid]

Paul warns believers in Gal 5:19-21 and 1Cor 6:9-10 that their sins (ie, their transgressions against the law; their works) can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of heaven.

Obviously, if your into witchcraft and getting drunk multiple times a week. Submitting false tax returns and stealing from the boss. You may not be saved, I agree. Most of those deeds of the flesh are not even mentioned in the letter of the law, much less the ten commandments. I cannot understand your crazy theology?

You have a serious problem with your quotation from Galatians. Here are the verses you quoted; Gal 5:19-21. I find it interesting that you did not quote the preceding verse shown below.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law (the ten commandments).

Not being under the law means what it says, i.e., not being under the ten commandments.

How can you proclaim these two contradictory ideas together?

LAW AND GRACE.

Paul already told you that you are not under the law.

you are not under the Law (the ten commandments).

Somehow you can sit there and tell me that you are under the law?

If you are lead by the Holy Spirit you are not under the law!

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

 

[klutedavid]

So, according to your (Holy Spirit-inspired) interpretation of Galations 2:14, Peter the apostle was a "legalist", obsessed with forcing Jewish and Gentile Christians alike into following the law of Moses ... YET he didn't follow the law of Moses at all himself and in fact lived like a Gentile!!

Fascinating, to say the least.

Yes, that is what the text states.

No one can successfully navigate the law, not even Peter.

The law only notifies you of your transgression.

The law does not grant righteousness nor salvation.

I believe the law was there for the Lord to fulfill, the rest of us were all condemned by the law.

Because the law constantly informs you that your thought life is corrupt. Then logically, the law is informing you that you are a sinner. Your a transgressor of the law. You are condemned by the law.

 

[klutedavid]

Which of the Ten Commandments below "condemn people to everlasting death"?

I. I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me.

2. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.

3. Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day.

4. Honor your father and your mother.

5. You shall not kill.

6. You shall not commit adultery.

7. You shall not steal.

8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.

All of them. You were stoned for every transgression of the Ten, in the Old and New Testament. You were also stoned for other offences such as sorcery, e.t.c.

Disobedience to the law is sin, sin is transgression of the law. Everyone on earth has already been condemned.

Romans 3:9-18
What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written: There is no righteous person, not even one; There is no one who understands, There is no one who seeks out God; They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, There is not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave, With their tongues they keep deceiving,” “The venom of asps is under their lips”;
“Their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”; “Their feet are swift to shed blood, Destruction and misery are in their paths, And they have not known the way of peace.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

That is the truth.

Somehow you believe that someone can obey the ten commandments?

 

[Buzzard3]

Obviously, if your into witchcraft and getting drunk multiple times a week. Submitting false tax returns and stealing from the boss. You may not be saved, I agree. Most of those deeds of the flesh are not even mentioned in the letter of the law, much less the ten commandments. I cannot understand your crazy theology?

You asked me if Christians must obey the TCs - I said Yes. I didn't say the only sins are those mentioned in the Ten Commandments.

You have a serious problem with your quotation from Galatians. Here are the verses you quoted; Gal 5:19-21. I find it interesting that you did not quote the preceding verse shown below.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law (the ten commandments).

Firstly, the verse you quote here doesn't say "the ten commandments" - that is your addition (based on your misinterpretation of the text, as we shall see).

The "law" Paul is referring to in Gal 5:18 are the RITUAL LAWS of Moses (such as circumcision) mentioned further back in Gal 5:3-5 -
"I testify again to that every man who recieves circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole LAW. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the LAW; you have fallen away from grace. For through the SPIRIT by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love."

The RITUAL LAW of Moses DOES NOT INCLUDE the Ten Commandments, so by "law" in Gal 5:18, Paul is not referring to the TCs.

Then in v.13-14, Paul tells the Galatians that the MORAL LAW of Moses still applies to Christians: "For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, 'You shall love your neighbour as yourself'" ... which comes from Leviticus 19:18.
(The MORAL LAW of Moses DOES INCLUDE the Ten Commandments.)

Paul then warns the Galatians that they must also avoid "works of the flesh" and that indulging in them can result in not inheriting the kingdom of Heaven (5:16-26).

Not being under the law means what it says, i.e., not being under the ten commandments.

No it doesn't ... as I 've just explained, you've misinterpreted the text and have quoted Gal 5:18 out of context.

And what Paul says in Romans 13:8-10 further contradicts your doctrine:

8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the LAW.

9 The commandments,
“You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,”
and any other commandment,

are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” (part of the law of Moses, Lev 19:18).

10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the LAW."

You say we are not under the Ten Commandments, but in v.9 Paul directly quotes some of the TCs as part of "fulfilling the LAW" (v.10). So Paul considers at least some of the TCs to be part of the "law" that Christians are under.

 

[Buzzard3]

You also keep claiming the keys were given to Peter alone which is not the consensus of the Church.

Paragraph 553 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church says “Peter, the only one to whom he (Jesus) specifically entrusted the keys of the kingdom.”