Dealing with those nagging doubts: answers to tough questions

[iitb]

I was going to title this "Countering Counter-Missionaries," as I think quite a few of us get our doubts from trips to those sites, but I don't want this to focus specifically on that; I also realize that we, as a group, can get a lot of "theology-shaking" input from our christian friends.

Anyway, I wanted to provide a place where those of us who are dealing with a specific doubt can get it out on the table, or just a place to get help with a theological debate that has you stumped.

All of that to say, "bring your confusing scripture here!"

I may be back later with something to get us started...if nobody else beats me to it

 

[simchat_torah]

why are you winking at me justin?

 

[iitb]

why are you winking at me justin?

Why, are you doubting something?

 

[Talmidah]

I do have some specific questions that I'll come back and note later when I have more time (I'm on break at work right now). For now, I wonder...is there anything in the Tanach that states that one must believe that the messiah is G-d or even, for that matter, believe in the messiah, in order to have a place in the olam haba?

 

[Hix]

No there is no such statement in the entire Bible

 

[simchat_torah]

my dearest Talmidah,

For now, I wonder...is there anything in the Tanach that states that one must believe that the messiah is G-d or even, for that matter, believe in the messiah, in order to have a place in the olam haba?

Is there anywhere in the Tenach that explicitly spells out the Messiah at all? Yet it is a core belief in Judaism.

How about Olam Haba? Is there anywhere in the Tenach that explicitly spells this out? What about hell? redemption? salvation?

I'm sorry, but I doubt anyone can actually answer your question dear. But I can say that there are literally dozens (well, many more than that) of passages that hint towards these concepts, especially the role of the messiah.

shalom,
yafet

 

[Charlesinflorida]

I do have some specific questions that I'll come back and note later when I have more time (I'm on break at work right now). For now, I wonder...is there anything in the Tanach that states that one must believe that the messiah is G-d or even, for that matter, believe in the messiah, in order to have a place in the olam haba?

Is 43: [11] I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Hos 13: [4] Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

CIF

 

[iitb]

Alrighty, I cleaned a few posts out of this thread. Nobody did anything wrong; as the original poster, I blame myself.

First, and I completely forgot to mention this, I would prefer if answers to any questions asked came from Messianics. I'm not intending to discriminate, I just feel that people would prefer answers from those whom they'd probably be a little more in agreement with theologically.

Second, I removed a post of mine and the responses to it. It wasn't anything I was struggling with, I was actually trying to jump-start this thread. However, I feel that Talmidah's serious questions were being overlooked as a result, so I trashed my post.

Everyone carry on

 

[Achichem]

G-d says three specific things I explicitly remember about human sacrifice, especial child sacrifice.
-he hates it
-don’t do it
-It must stop

I could look up the exact quotes if you would like but I am sure you know the ones I am referring.

So why is human sacrifice part of G-d plan? It seems very out of character.

Ok, now to the trial of Yeshua, he according to the gospels he hinted that he was G-d, and said "No one knows the father, without knowing the son", ect. Which is seemingly untrue, so wasn't the judgement of the trial right? And wasn't he then indeed guilty of a crime and hence not clean?

Plus since he was worshiped wasn’t he an idol? and hence need to be destroyed.(Mental laps it was Proskuneo not Sobmoai )

 

[Hix]

Man have YOU changed or what.

Interperation can be imployed and using which Yeshua never claims to be HaShem, infact he even says there are things HaShem knows which he does not know, and HaShem is greater than he is. Also Yeshua wasnt a sacrifice as you have rightly said HaShem forbids human sacrifice to be offered as it was a pagan practise. Human sacrifice was never part of G-ds plan, infact sacrifice became useless long before Yeshua as HaShem said all he wanted was prayer and repentance. Yeshua came to enforce this.

The message of the Bible is that noone can be held accountable for someone elses sins, we are ALL accountable for our own and for our own personal walk with HaShem. Yeshua's "sacrifice" was different from a burnt offering which was traditionally offered only for unintentional sins as is perscribed in the Torah.

As for this "idol" thing, please, if you even ask Rabbi Tovia Singer one of the biggest counter-missionaries in the world hel tell you that yeshua did NOT claim to be HaShem. Infact he has it on his FAQs, take a look: http://www.outreachjudaism.org/claimgod.html
HaShem will never take the form of something, as that would be a cause for idolitary, and in the case of Yeshua he DIDNT. Or at least I believe so, I used to think you believed so too.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

 

[Achichem]

Ok, well let me read through all that and then I’ll get back to you. Thank you. And I have certainly changed and become much more familiar with Judaism (even though I am still at an introductory phase) how ever still me.

Next four questions:

The gospels (the new testament even more so) depict a particular distaste for Pharisee and their teaching, yet as we all know here Yeshua and his ministry taught 90% Phariseeical teaching. Why is there such negative depiction of the Pharisee, when in all reality the ministry was more against the other sects?

Yeshua said in Matthew 9:6 “the son of man has the authority on earth to forgive sins”, yet clearly that is in violation of soild teaching. Can it be reconciled?

Yeshua said in Matthew 5:38-39 “Offer the wicked man no resistance. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well” such a pacifist reaction, who have had the Jewish people wipe out centuries ago, can it be reconciled?

Yeshua said in Matthew 5:28 “But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” Isn’t that impossible, and if it is not, it sure a high bar. Is G-d one to make such statements?

Thanks, I look forward to your reply.

Datsar

Ps: the “just say no to Jesus” is only addressed to the masses of people I see as using a messiah figure as an idol, as it has become a harsh drug to them in my opinion; hence using the name Jesus. To me that name has become synonymous to almost all nations with an “idol figure”.Which I have a responsibility to say somthing about.

 

[Mordechai18]

Hix, since Yeshua was not a sacrifice, why did he have to die for the atonement to take place? And why is he constantly being compared to the lamb of Passover?

 

[Mordechai18]

I undrestand that not all Messianics believe Yeshua to have been G-d, or believe that he never took that title for himself. This leaves me curious about this quote from the New Testament:

"27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." "

 

[simchat_torah]

DaTsar,

I must ask, have you heard of Jacob Neusner? He compiled the English translation of the Mishnah (his most famous work) and has many other writings focusing on a Rabbinic nature.

If so, I'd like to show you some of his comments concerning the issues you brought up.

shalom,
yafet

 

[Hix]

Mordechai, the Pessach Lamb was not an atonement sacrifice, it was a different kind of sacrifice entirely. As is Yeshua. The Pessach lamb happened at a time when Egypt worshiped the sheep, any kind of violation on it was punishible by death, so G-d said to his people to kill the lamb and dare to put it on the doorpost for him were everyone could see it. If they had enough faith they would have taken that risk for him, that is what the sacrifice of the Pessach lamb was.

 

[Achichem]

I must ask, have you heard of Jacob Neusner? He compiled the English translation of the Mishnah (his most famous work) and has many other writings focusing on a Rabbinic nature.

If so, I'd like to show you some of his comments concerning the issues you brought up.

I have heard of him but not read too much, so please do.

 

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

Hix, since Yeshua was not a sacrifice, why did he have to die for the atonement to take place? And why is he constantly being compared to the lamb of Passover?

Rom 5:14 HNV
(14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moshe, even over those whose sins weren't like Adam's disobedience, who is a foreshadowing of him who was to come.

1Co 15:22-28 HNV
(22) For as in Adam all die, so also in Messiah all will be made alive.(23) But each in his own order: Messiah the first fruits, then those who are Messiah's, at his coming.(24) Then the end comes, when he will deliver up the Kingdom to YHVH, even the Father; when he will have abolished all rule and all authority and power.(25) For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.(26) The last enemy that will be abolished is death.(27) For, "He put all things in subjection under his feet." But when he says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him.(28) When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that YHVH may be all in all.

1Co 15:45 HNV
(45) So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

 

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

I undrestand that not all Messianics believe Yeshua to have been G-d, or believe that he never took that title for himself. This leaves me curious about this quote from the New Testament:

"27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." "

Here is how I see this. Let us look back into Egypt when Yoseph was appointed to the Right Hand of Pharaoh. He, Yoseph Saved Israel from Starvation for the Glory of YHWH. YHWH appointed Yeshua to HIS Right Hand with all the power and glory in the whole world and Heaven. And since He, Yeshua was appointed KING of Kings, Our Master, Our Prince of Peace, The right and just Cornerstone, we will ALL BOW BEFORE HIM IN YHWH'S GLORY.

I also believe that some certain religion changed what they could in the B'rit Khadashah to sound the way they wanted it to.

Shalom,

Tag

 

[Mordechai18]

Thanks, SoY.
But these quotes are all form the NT, and were written after the fact. How would the Jews of the time have known to expect that the Messiah would need to be sacrificed bodily and bloodily, in the manner of the lamb at Pesach, for the expiation of sins?

 

[Hix]

Like I said, the Pessach lamb was NOT a sacrifice for atonement. And on another matter The Tanach says that HaShem does not want sacrifice but rather contrite repentance and to follow the Torah, Yeshua came and taught this lesson to the Jews, it was not them who needed "expiation" of sins as they were under an eternal covenant which promised that. It was those lost sheep of the house of Israel who needed Yeshua, and indeed the gentiles so that they may be adopted in to Israel also. That is why Yeshua came.