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didaskalos said:The most fundamentalist people are the ones who insist that they are not!
It is not a catch 22... it is just a fact of life.sparklecat said:That's a bit of a catch-22 there...
IMO, not on most issues.didaskalos said:Are you a fundy?
Yes.1. Do you believe something... anything?
No, I just believe this is probably the case.2. Do you insist that you are right while all those who disagree with you are wrong?
Compelled? No3. Do you feel compelled to change their minds? Even adament?
No4. Are you willing to break off relationships with friends, family, etc based on the disagreement?
No5. Do you suggest to others that they break off relationships and with friends and family based on the disagreement?
No6. Do you come to the forums of those with whom you disagree with the sole intent of disuading them from their position to yours?
Depends on my mood and how we've gotten along recently7. Do you belittle and insult those who refuse to agree with your position?
No8. Do you find yourself envoking words like "intolerant" arrogent" and "closed minded", while never considering that you are behaving exactly in these ways.
Most definitely not9. Do you insist that your truth is a "meta truth"; a higher kind of truth and so not subject to the same verification that normal truth is subject to?
No10. Do you insist that you are not fundamentalist?
Thank youWelcome aboard!
didaskalos said:It is not a catch 22... it is just a fact of life.
We are all fundamentalist something.
The OP's mother is the one insisting that the poster is only allowed to believe a certain way. The poster is not insisting that his mother believe a certain way. The difference is obvious.didaskalos said:More fundy advice...
Well, you're lucky, this is kind of disheartening to deal with, but thanks for your words of encouragement!Prince Lucianus said:I had no fundy parents so I can't help you out in that department, but I do wish you strength......
Lucy
I'll graduate this year, but I'm probably not going to leave home for college (as of now). I understand that it's their house, but they can't really control what I believe, rather, just try to influence it.Nathan David said:That's a tough one. On the one hand, I want to encourage you to stand up for yourself and believe as you choose. On the other, you have to live under these people's roof. Your profile says you are 18. How long until you graduate high school and move out?
I think almost everyone in the world would fail my mom's test. I'm glad that there are so many people on my side. I'm also glad that I went to a public school, I can't imagine how I would be if they homeschooled me! (no offense to their ability to teach)radorth said:I would fail your mom's Christian test badly, and God has visited me in the most profound ways, so not to worry friend.
Rad
Well, as far as I'm concerned, there's nothing to take back, I have my own beliefs and I respect my moms, I wish she would do the same with me. I didn't want to debate anything with her, it's just that the topic of evolution somehow came up and I alluded to the fact that I accepted it (this is probably my biased side of the story here) then she exploded at me. I'm not an atheist or anything, I still consider myself a christian, I'm just not confined to the same "I'm right and nobody else is or ever will be" train of thought that she has.Arkanin said:I had fundy parents. My advice is, no, definitely don't take it back. And definitely don't try to persuade them to agree with you either. I would say, you need to be straightforward about what you honestly believe and petition them to accept the fact that that is what you honestly believe.
I'm not saying that you should be disrespectful to your parents, but if you are sure what you believe is what you will believe for a while, then you need to expect them to accept that fact. I think that if you expect them to accept the fact that you believe differently, they will (and honestly, I think it is very sensible, in fact, insightful on your part to have come to those conclusions).
But I also very strongly suggest against debating with them about who is right. I would push for acceptance and nothing more or less. And you need to not argue about religious topics with them, as it will create unnecessary tension in you guys' life. I did this with my fundy parents when I was about 15 and we just don't talk about religion or politics, and we get along very well despite my being a politically liberal atheist.
I was more or less being sarcastic, I wasn't seriously considering doing that.Irish_Guevara said:Wazoo,
I don't have fundamentalist parents either, but I do have some suggestions:
That's probably not a good idea. It's lying, and she'll eventually know that you're not being sincere. Stand firm in your beliefs, but don't antagonize her's. Just make it clear to her exactly what you believe and if she'll accept you for what you believe then everything's dandy. If she won't, then it's her problem, not yours.
*edit - Arkanin beat me to it.
Here comes my biased side of the argument again. I didn't push anything, it's just that she's looking for reasons to act overzealous about her religious beliefs and fight against the devil or something.AirPo said:I'd tread lightly here. You could possible lose your releationship with her. Don't push the issue unless it becomes necessary. I mean really necessary. For example, my mother refused visits with my grandmother, a Johova Witness, until grandma promised that if something happened to me, she would allow medical intervention.
Otherwise, your mom is more importent than being right.
Mother and son?coyoteBR said:sheesh, WazoO, difficult situation.
The best thing to do is avoid trouble. Maybe you can go to her, and say you're sorry if you upset her, and maybe the better is to forget that subject and continue being a loving mother and son. Finish with a good hug.
Maybe she will say something in the line of you not being upseting her, but God. You can answer: "Well, that's between me and Him. All that matters now is to be close to the mother I love very much."
A bit of emotional bribe, I know, but mothers are mothers.
Hope that everything improves on your family.
I am for the most part a very docile person, I'm not looking for any confrontations, but they seem to jump in my face. (this is probably me being biased again)Amalthea said:You're 18 the age of majority. Believe what you want but avoid shouting matches.
This isn't really a new understanding, I just never did anything to let my parents know that I accept science as well as religion. I'm hoping that this is only a small roadblock on my relationship with my mom, but right now it's a big deal.arizona_sunshine said:This advice has been given a few times in this thread, and I think its perfect. It is more important that you embrace and apply your new understanding of Christianity than it is to convince unwilling parties that you are right. Calling another's belief 'silly' only fans the flame, as you have seen, and that should be avoided. Continue to study and apply the teachings you believe, that will be the strongest argument in your favor. If this is not recognized by your family, it is unfortunate that they are missing out on the real wealth brought to a life by faith ...
Well, I don't think it was a courageous step forward, I would have avoided it if I knew what it would involve! Also, I've read a lot from the web, the internet and school are the only reasons what I'm not living in the same windowless box that my parents are. I'm sure that your website is great (I read the into page, these are questions similar to the ones I asked myself) but my parents probably won't be changed by it. I really would like to help them see that christianity isn't just their own little version of it, but I can't approach them with that now, I just want this awkwardness of no talking to be over!doubtingmerle said:First, congratulations, WaZoo for your courageous step forward. It is a very difficult thing to do. You will be glad you made this decision.
I too grew up with fundamentalist parents, and was a committed Bible-waving Soul-winning Independent Baptist for years. That belief system can give one a lot of comfort, and the thought of leaving the security of that belief system can be terrifying.
As others have said, you need not convince your parents. The last thing you want is a heated argument.
I recommend that you take the time to think for yourself and to learn more about other thought systems. There are a wealth of good resources on the web, as well as support sites for those who are going through the trauma of leaving Christianity.
If your parents are ever open to questioning, you may want to refer them to my website-[removed link so I could post]-which is designed to help people think about the problems of religion in a non-offensive way.
Wishing you the best.
Brimshack said:Redefining fundamentalist so as to render it universally applicable is one way to destroy the meaning of the term. It is entirely fair to suggest that the OP should try to be open himself in approaching the discussion. It is not, however, fair to suggest that simply taking a stand in any way makes his position the moral or intellectual equivalent ofthe one he opposes.
You have no beliefs?sparklecat said:Ok then... I am not a religious fundamentalist. Does that mean that I am one?
Suggesting this course of action concerning one's mother is definately fundy advice.... bad fundy advice:Nathan David said:The OP's mother is the one insisting that the poster is only allowed to believe a certain way. The poster is not insisting that his mother believe a certain way. The difference is obvious.
Brimshack said:Yes, the term has acquired a negative connotation as of late, and that has lead to sloppy usages. It should not be used as a simple equivalent to closed-mindedness is Christians. I have known Fundamentalists that were not closed minded, and who were deserving of respect. I have in fact, met such people on this board. I have also met closed-minded and bigoted people who were not Fundamentalists, some were nominally in my own camps on these subjects. I would whole-heartedly support any effort you want to make to clarify the use of the term, even if that means revising my own initial comments here. Your present angle is however, NOT an attempt to clarify anything. It is rather a deliberate attempt to obfuscate the issue and ensure that all the criticism is meted out equally to all, regardless of actual merit. You can say that it is a fact all day long that people are Fundamentalist whenever they take a stance, but that does not make it so. And your scorched earth tactic is simply not constructive.
-keep in mind that she probably believes there is a hell and that unless you accept the Gospel, or the version she believes in then it may seem to her that you will go to hell to. It could be a selfish thing, or it could be an honest and unselfish thing with your well-being at heart or it could be a bit of both.Here comes my biased side of the argument again. I didn't push anything, it's just that she's looking for reasons to act overzealous about her religious beliefs and fight against the devil or something.
didaskalos said:We all have fundy parents and we are all fundy ourselves... else there would never any conflicts at all.
Consider this possiblility that you are just as fundamentalist and narrow in your beliefs as your parents are... howbeit in the other direction.
My parents know they are fundamentalists, they actually joke about it sometimes, they have their lighter side too.didaskalos said:The most fundamentalist people are the ones who insist that they are not!
Ouch, that's way too drastic! I'm not looking to disown my parents, just trying to reconcile my beliefs with theirs.ApostateAbe said:WaZoO, I went through the same hell. I suggest that you move out as soon as you have a job or college loans. You have no use being around her anymore.
Yes, I believed in a literal bible before I could examine what it really entailed. I'm not changing my beliefs to rebel, that's way off. I think I gave both sides a fair shot, but I don't really take any of that 6,000 year old Earth garbage seriously, I'm not even sure my parents do. They never seemed to have a problem with the age of the Earth or learning about dinosaurs in school, but they think evolution is insulting to God's power or something. Right now I consider myself an orthodox christian, which is a mainstream sect, is it not?feral said:Was there ever a time in your life where you shared these fundamentalist beliefs? If so, what do you think caused the change in your understanding, such as no longer seeing the Bible as literal? Also, have you done a lot of research and examined both sides to the issues before making up your mind? If not I would recommend it, not only so you are informed but also to make sure you are not just reacting to or rebelling from your families fundamentalism. It is possible to be a mainstream Christian and avoid both fundamentalism and radicalism.
She believes that the serpent in genesis talked, I'm sure, not in modern talking snakes.feral said:Does she believe in talking snakes?
I didn't really think about that before. I wasn't aware that the reason my mother got so upset is because I offended her, I guess I can see her side of it a little better. I think I'm going to approach her with that when I get home, calling hell "silly" was probably not the best thing to do.feral said:Yes, well...as silly and quaint as it might seem to you, your mother obviously believes very strongly in hell, and questioning her made her feel insulted, attacked and demeaned. When someone is desperately clutching at a long held set of beliefs, questioning them or offering alternatives throws them into defensive mode. A better way to approach it probably would have been "What is your understanding of hell, and how would you respond to someone who doubted it?". Of course, even if you are nice about it, some people simply cannot tolerant debate.
I can't thank you enough, I think this is exactly how I should approach her!feral said:Obviously I do not know your mother personally, but I would first suggest that you apologize to her for offending her, and explain honestly that you have many doubts and questions and do not share her beliefs in many respects. Do not make it sound like she is the one with the problem or that she is naive or stupid but that you are the one with unresolved questions.
Be honest with her. Share your doubts. Use tact and show respect for her opinions. Tell her that the devil seems abstract to you and explain your doubts and obstacles. Do not say "obviously, Hell does not exist", instead say "I do not understand how a loving God can create a Hell to punish people. These beliefs seem incompatible. What do you think?" or something along those lines. She may be able to present more evidence to you, or not, but in any case you can still show respect for her. If she really flies off the handle every time you mention an alternative view, then she probably is having doubts herself and is unwilling to face them. Also realize that she loves you and that in her understanding you will be eternally punished for these questions - she wants you to share her beliefs because you fears you will suffer otherwise.
Well, I go to an orthodox church with my friend usually, not with my parents, suprisingly, they don't have a problem with this. I'll probably talk to the priest there this Sunday. I've read this board for a long time, that's why I knew I could count on the people here for some good advice.feral said:If it turns out that she argues with you or that you fight every time you share a differing viewpoint, then I suggest not talking to your mother about religion anymore. If she requires you to attend church with her then go, but stay off the topic at home. When she says something about it, listen and nod politely, and agree with what you can, and then turn to something else. In the meantime, there are plenty of other people you can talk to, like church leaders and others, even many on this board. Over time you can slowly began to address your questions and beliefs to your mother, but throwing all your opposition at her at once is too much for her, apparently.
didaskalos said:You have no beliefs?
None?
didaskalos said:But it will perhaps help the OPer see that there are more sides to the story than just a "nimrod" mother. I suspect there is more to the story when someone calls their mother a "nimrod". Where will all these people who are advocating breaking up this family relationship be in 5 years when this 18 year old or her mother (or both) have changed their minds? Which fundy will give in first?
The worse possible advice is to break with family and friends. That is worse than fundy... that is more like a cult.
Good advice.coyoteBR said:sheesh, WazoO, difficult situation.
The best thing to do is avoid trouble. Maybe you can go to her, and say you're sorry if you upset her, and maybe the better is to forget that subject and continue being a loving mother and son. Finish with a good hug.
Maybe she will say something in the line of you not being upseting her, but God. You can answer: "Well, that's between me and Him. All that matters now is to be close to the mother I love very much."
A bit of emotional bribe, I know, but mothers are mothers.
Hope that everything improves on your family.
Yes, Brimshack, that's the difficulty of it, there's no clear cut easy way out! I do understand that my mom is looking at things through a different lens than I am, I just wish they could understand my side a little better.Brimshack said:My own parents had a few irrationale spots (though I suspect that may not be such a mark of distinction), and I think it helps to remember that they may be asking very different questions than you are. I think for many Fundamentalists, including perhaps your Mother, the dominant theme is one of personal relationships rather than rational critique. The thing is, though, that it is a complete paradigm, and there is no way in or out. The interpretation she advances is one that reflects her loyalty to the God she believes in; even to question that is to show disloyalty to that God, and as that God is deserving of the loyalty, no question about him can be asked without showing your own disloyalty. You can go round and round until the frustration is beyond belief, but the point is that no questions about evidence will get through. Nevermind the answers, your questions themselves will be translated first into an equasion of loyalty, hence her outrage instead of an answer. I don't have any concrete suggestions for how to deal with the matter, but I do think it pays to remember that you may have something of a language barriar at work here. Accept the fact that you may never get through, and your interactions will be less stressfull.
Good luck.
Hmm, I don't think just being straightforward is the best way to deal with this, it's too much to toss at them at once! I'm sure that they love me, just like I love them, it's just that their fundamentalism makes it difficult at times! I understand it's my life, and that my parents think they are doing what's right and what's best for me. I also understand that it's normal and healthy to battle stuff out sometimes, I'd just rather do it over more important things that me going to hell because I believe evolution.silverflare said:Be straightforward about what you believe. Tell them your beliefs do not change your love for them and that you should hope it works the other way around. After all, they are commanded by the Bible to love even their enemies, so loving their daughter cannot be so hard to fathom for them. It's important not to lose people that you care about, but it's also important to stand up for what you believe in. Just remember, it's your life, not theirs.
Thanks, Stormy.Stormy said:didaskalos: Thank you for showing us that there is more than one type of fundy.
To the OP: I would suggest that you have respect and love your mother, for who she is, and hopefully one day she will do the same for you.
Everyone can see that change is necessary, but it is rarely an inward sighting.
No problem, sparklecat, I like reading all the little arguments! Yeah, not lying, but not shoving in their face seems to be a reasonable approach.sparklecat said:...sorry Wazoo, didn't mean to sidetrack. I'd say don't lie about your beliefs, but don't cause unneccessary friction, either. In time, they'll at least tolerate them.
There's no doubt that she believes in hell, I think she really takes that "narrow path" thing seriously! I don't think my mom is saying these things out of selfishness at all, it's just what she believes, and that's great for her. I don't think I'm going to be able to agree with her on a literal gospel.Theresa said:-keep in mind that she probably believes there is a hell and that unless you accept the Gospel, or the version she believes in then it may seem to her that you will go to hell to. It could be a selfish thing, or it could be an honest and unselfish thing with your well-being at heart or it could be a bit of both.
You want her to see it from your eyes and I don't think that you can see it from hers and understand the panic that she may be feeling, the loss, the fear, the feeling of being a bad parent to you, all these things. At the very least I think that these feelings probably outweigh your own of feeling mildly restricted and less understood.
FYI, I most likely don't agree with your mother on doctrinal issues nor yours so I am not taking her side but I am a parent and I do understand that the majority of people hold their beliefs honestly and that a ruined parent/child relationship over religion is a very sad thing. You want to maintain both the relationship and your integrity which is understandable, but you will have to tread very carefully I think.
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