Day of pentecost... when?

[Alithis]

So just looking for clarification...

Pass over started on the 14th day of thefirst month (Nisan) which in the mangeld roman calendar would be next 19 april 2019.
Is penticost 50 days after the start of the passover and 7 day sabbath... or 50 days after the end of it..

Reason ... so many(non jewish)believers i know have left the system churches and thier misguided traditions correlating to pagan festivals like xmas etc.
But in doing so have stripped away all celebratory gatherings .
This one (pentecost) i believe is one we can rejoice in free from pagan influence and should.
But tge penticost sunday is already tainted by being dicided by rome which already has so much error in it its embarrasing to a basic intellect. (I refer to the death and resurection of friday and sunday which doesnteven include a 3 day time period .doesnt take much math to workout thier days are wrong..so thier 7sundays later is wrong also.

Any good links highlighting the day of pentecost correctly ?

 

[visionary]

Jewish Holidays | Hebcal Jewish Calendar

 

[CherubRam]

There were two calendars in use in Christ day, the Biblical Calendar, and the Civil Lunar Calendar.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

So just looking for clarification...

Pass over started on the 14th day of thefirst month (Nisan) which in the mangeld roman calendar would be next 19 april 2019.
Is penticost 50 days after the start of the passover and 7 day sabbath... or 50 days after the end of it..

Reason ... so many(non jewish)believers i know have left the system churches and thier misguided traditions correlating to pagan festivals like xmas etc.
But in doing so have stripped away all celebratory gatherings .
This one (pentecost) i believe is one we can rejoice in free from pagan influence and should.
But tge penticost sunday is already tainted by being dicided by rome which already has so much error in it its embarrasing to a basic intellect. (I refer to the death and resurection of friday and sunday which doesnteven include a 3 day time period .doesnt take much math to workout thier days are wrong..so thier 7sundays later is wrong also.

Depends on what interpretation you want to follow. In current Rabbinic Judaism, it is counted from the day after the 15th "Sabbath" (so on the 16th) no matter what day it falls on while it can also be interpreted (in Christianity and Kairite Judaism) as always falling on the day after the weekly Sabbath (Sunday) of Passover, thus Shavuot/Pentecost would always fall 50 days later on a Sunday (the day after that weekly Sabbath). What is interesting is that if you believe that Yeshua rose on the 16th (Sunday) that year, both these interpretations would have occurred...the Judaic 16th as well as the Christian interpretation (death on the 14th and resurrection on the 16th).

 

[Alithis]

Depends on what interpretation you want to follow. In current Rabbinic Judaism, it is counted from the day after the 15th "Sabbath" (so on the 16th) no matter what day it falls on while it can also be interpreted (in Christianity and Kairite Judaism) as always falling on the day after the weekly Sabbath (Sunday) of Passover, thus Shavuot/Pentecost would always fall 50 days later on a Sunday (the day after that weekly Sabbath). What is interesting is that if you believe that Yeshua rose on the 16th (Sunday) that year, both these interpretations would have occurred...the Judaic 16th as well as the Christian interpretation (death on the 14th and resurrection on the 16th).

Umm ok .. Im not trying to offend .
The many Hebrew names for all these festivals etc are a bit bedazzling..

Can you guys also link a hebrew english correlation between the hebrew terms and english names?

I liked the calander linked in 2nd post.. But a translation (english equivalant ) would be handy..

Topic for ongoing discussion:
Having discussed this with others...and i hope to with more.. We may yet simply choose ..(for practicality and availability of people ) the weekend closest to the most likely day.. For a weekend get together to celebrate this amazing event that many if ourselves have also experienced (the outpouring of the promised Holy Spirit upon us and into us)

Now we are open to simple ideas of what the weekend (or week) could look like... ??

Remember our goal is ultimately for this to replace the roman paganism.around "easter"
And replace the solstice type pagan origins of 25 december christmas.

So we want to establish among us a substantial celebration in this .

 

[visionary]

Rosh Hashana - Feast of Trumpets
Yom Kippur - Day of Atonement
Sukkot - Feast of Tabernacles
Shmini Atzeret - Eighth day of the Feast of Taberbacles
Simchat Torah - Celebrate the start over of the reading of the Torah. [custom]
Chanukah - Feast of Dedication
Purim - Defeat of Haman [read Esther]
Pesach - Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread
[missing First Fruits/Wave Sheaf]
Shavuot - Pentecost
Tish'a B'Av - Historically a bad day for Jews [not in scripture as a commandment]

 

[gadar perets]

Here is my take on Pentecost (it can fall on any day of the week). In 2019, it will fall on a Sabbath, May 11. Sunday proponents will keep it on May 12.

Also, I would encourage you to celebrate all of YHWH's holy days, not just Pentecost. They all have tremendous meaning in the plan of salvation.

 

[Dave-W]

Depends on what interpretation you want to follow. In current Rabbinic Judaism, it is counted from the day after the 15th "Sabbath" (so on the 16th) no matter what day it falls on while it can also be interpreted (in Christianity and Kairite Judaism) as always falling on the day after the weekly Sabbath (Sunday) of Passover, thus Shavuot/Pentecost would always fall 50 days later on a Sunday (the day after that weekly Sabbath). What is interesting is that if you believe that Yeshua rose on the 16th (Sunday) that year, both these interpretations would have occurred...the Judaic 16th as well as the Christian interpretation (death on the 14th and resurrection on the 16th).

Indeed it was only one point of contention between the Sadducees and Pharisees. Sadducean tradition has carried on to the Karaites while the Pharisaic has carried onto Rabbinic Judaism.

I do not think they aligned that year since the way the omer is counted, the Rabbinic/Pharisaic day comes first 6 out of 7 years. The hint is in Acts 2 where it says "When the day of Shavuot/Pentecost had FULLY come ...." That means it was per the later date which would have been the Sadducean Feast and on a Sunday.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Indeed it was only one point of contention between the Sadducees and Pharisees. Sadducean tradition has carried on to the Karaites while the Pharisaic has carried onto Rabbinic Judaism.

I do not think they aligned that year since the way the omer is counted, the Rabbinic/Pharisaic day comes first 6 out of 7 years. The hint is in Acts 2 where it says "When the day of Shavuot/Pentecost had FULLY come ...." That means it was per the later date which would have been the Sadducean Feast and on a Sunday.

If He rose on that Sunday, on Yom HaBikkurim, the 16th, it would have aligned since Sunday would have been the day after the weekly Sabbath of Pesakh too. So you are saying that Paul wrote the Saduccean feast was what He and Yeshua followed, yet Paul called himself a pharisee?

 

[ralliann]

Didn't the Essenes also have a calender for the count of weeks? I thought I read they also interpreted it to be Sunday, but a week later than the Sadducees?
If so 3 understandings existed concerning the Sabbath of Leviticus 23.
Le 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
Le 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
Le 23:16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
Essenes "the morrow after the Sabbath" = Sunday
Sadducees " the morrow after the Sabbath" = Sunday
Pharisees "the morrow after the Sabbath" = 16th day of the month (regarding the 15th day to be a festival Sabbath) I think here Seven sabbaths would simply mean weeks?

 

[Dave-W]

Didn't the Essenes also have a calender for the count of weeks? I thought I read they also interpreted it to be Sunday, but a week later than the Sadducees?

The Essenes did not figure into the NT at all besides a few warnings against their teachings. THat means they can be safely ignored when it comes to such things.

 

[ralliann]

The Essenes did not figure into the NT at all besides a few warnings against their teachings. THat means they can be safely ignored when it comes to such things.

Where are the warnings?

 

[ralliann]

If He rose on that Sunday, on Yom HaBikkurim, the 16th, it would have aligned since Sunday would have been the day after the weekly Sabbath of Pesakh too. So you are saying that Paul wrote the Saduccean feast was what He and Yeshua followed, yet Paul called himself a pharisee?

Considering this for awhile myself. Judaism in the time of messiah was political and sectarian. The varying calender for this feast day had been a point of contention for a long time before Messiah came. This scripture comes to mind.

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

 

[Dave-W]

Where are the warnings?

Here is one:

Matt 5.43 You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

The ”hate your enemy” was a mystery where it came from for centuries, until they found the charter of the Qumran community in the Dead Sea Scrolls. It was from that document.

 

[Alithis]

Here is my take on Pentecost (it can fall on any day of the week). In 2019, it will fall on a Sabbath, May 11. Sunday proponents will keep it on May 12.

Also, I would encourage you to celebrate all of YHWH's holy days, not just Pentecost. They all have tremendous meaning in the plan of salvation.

thank you for the encouragement but we feel no need or requirement/obligation to do so . we hold to one commanded festival -being the breaking of bread and taking of the blood of grapes , i know of none others commended to "us" .

 

[Alithis]

Rosh Hashana - Feast of Trumpets
Yom Kippur - Day of Atonement
Sukkot - Feast of Tabernacles
Shmini Atzeret - Eighth day of the Feast of Taberbacles
Simchat Torah - Celebrate the start over of the reading of the Torah. [custom]
Chanukah - Feast of Dedication
Purim - Defeat of Haman [read Esther]
Pesach - Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread
[missing First Fruits/Wave Sheaf]
Shavuot - Pentecost
Tish'a B'Av - Historically a bad day for Jews [not in scripture as a commandment]

thank you visionary .

 

[visionary]

thank you visionary .

You are welcome...

 

[visionary]

thank you for the encouragement but we feel no need or requirement/obligation to do so . we hold to one commanded festival -being the breaking of bread and taking of the blood of grapes , i know of none others commended to "us" .

Col 3:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

No man can judge you unless you are participating in the eating and drinking according to God's commandments let alone keeping of His Holy Days, whether it is the keeping of the moon or sabbath days [whether weekly or annually]. Legalists, then as now, make judgments as to how it is to be done, and for those who do not, they are not included. Just remember the feasts are the shadow of things to come, kept for all eternity, and they prophetically point to Yeshua; just like He fulfilled the spring feasts, He will also fulfill the fall feasts.

Another commandment was given in Revelation by angels shouting.. not whispering, or speaking quietly, but shouting so that the whole world could hear....

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

If so 3 understandings existed concerning the Sabbath of Leviticus 23.
Le 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
Le 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
Le 23:16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
Essenes "the morrow after the Sabbath" = Sunday
Sadducees " the morrow after the Sabbath" = Sunday
Pharisees "the morrow after the Sabbath" = 16th day of the month (regarding the 15th day to be a festival Sabbath) I think here Seven sabbaths would simply mean weeks?

Shavua is week in Hebrew thus Shavuot is weeks. However, the word is Sabbath in those verses. 7 Sabbaths would be 7 weeks, from Sabbath to Sabbath. If not the weekly Sabbath (as Rabbinic Judaism contends), where are the other 6 Sabbaths during the weeks? There are none other than the weekly Sabbaths. So the morrow of the Sabbath, is Sunday. The question would be is 15 nisan a "Sabbath" (as Yom Kippur is) or not...it is called a "mikrah".

 

[Dave-W]

Shavua is week in Hebrew thus Shavuot is weeks. However, the word is Sabbath in those verses. 7 Sabbaths would be 7 weeks, from Sabbath to Sabbath. If not the weekly Sabbath (as Rabbinic Judaism contends), where are the other 6 Sabbaths during the weeks? There are none other than the weekly Sabbaths. So the morrow of the Sabbath, is Sunday. The question would be is 15 nisan a "Sabbath" (as Yom Kippur is) or not...it is called a "mikrah".

The very argument the Karaites make.

The Rabbinics and the Pharisees before them took shabatot as weeks or sets of 7 days instead of sabbaths. The words for Sabbath, week and 7 are related and very close. It is a fair usage, but IMO not proper in this case.