Dave Hunt says RCC is Babylon

[Affinity]

I agree with Dave. Read the Bible, not some book written by a mere man. Read especially Danial and Revelation. They go together hand in hand and are right on target for the times we are living in.

The Bible interpets itself. I would stick with the Bible, it is the one sure source of information we have, and it doesn't change.

midnightcry

What's wrong with reading books?

 

[Affinity]

Don't read other peoples books to determine who Babylon is, or to gain understanding on Bible Prophecy.

Read the Bible.


Scripture, (not Dave Hunt or any other novel writer) "is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. "

What's wrong with books on Bible interpretations?

If man's attempts at Bible interpretation were totally pointless and fruitless, what have theologians been doing for the past 1900 years? Wasting there time?

Not at all! Bible commentaries and interpretation have been very helpful for many reasons throughout the years. And I can't say I've ever heard of anyone just picking up the Bible, reading the book of Revelation with no commentary or study to follow, and just understand it. That's a hard book, and there's lots of views on it, but if one were to follow your advice, they'd probably come up with yet another view, know what I mean? So the advice you give is not practical, and books written on the Bible and what it means are very useful.

 

[Affinity]

Whichis what you are doing. There will be people who with equal fervour say you are mistaking the true meaning.

In other words, we all interpret - a text cannot interpret itself. That is anthropomophic silliness.

How do you get an anthropomorphism (sp?) out of that. Don't anthropomorphisms describe human attributes figuratively applied to God?

 

[Affinity]

I agree , that's why when I read , "and in her was found the blood of prophets" , I don't try and make stuff up just to suit my theology , I just look for the biblical interpretation such as :

Mt 23:37 - "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!

And does Jerusalem sit on "seven hills"?. Because I know that Rome does, and that is who was persecuting the Christians when John wrote this. So if you put 2 and 2 together...

 

[parousia70]

And does Jerusalem sit on "seven hills"?.

Yes it does.
Zion, Moriah, Arca, Ophel, Bezetha, Millo, and the rock of the tower of Antonia.

Because I know that Rome does, and that is who was persecuting the Christians when John wrote this. So if you put 2 and 2 together...

Since Jews were persecuting Christians when John wrote Revelation as well , your 2+2 theory isn't really werkin fer me.

 

[rhymnrzn2zion]

TBC: A Brief History

Seven years after the release of The Seduction of Christianity in 1985, its authors, Dave Hunt and T.A. McMahon, also joined forces on another front. They began a ministry for the purpose of encouraging spiritual discernment among those who regarded themselves as biblical Christians. The primary vehicle for this endeavor was through the publication of the newsletter The Berean Call. Behind every article is the exhortation to believers to get back into the Word of God instead of being “carried about by every wind of doctrine,” and to equip them with materials to help them walk in the truth.

http://www.thebereancall.org/AboutTBC/index.php

The Berean Call, Dave Hunt's ministry is non-profit--they do not make any profit from selling their books, Bibles, etc. Let me ask you this:

Did you purchase your Bible? Do you buy books written by other authors, other than Dave Hunt? Does it cost money to produce this information?

Since when is Dave Hunt selling the gifts of the Spirit? That's absolutely ridiculous! BTW--the newsletter is mailed free to anyone who desires it--it also can be emailed free. You might want to check out the website--

Remember--We owed a debt we could not pay. Jesus paid a debt He did not owe. Salvation is the FREE gift of God's grace.

Aye, alot of years of labour there with Mr. Hunt: will he be subject to the prophets? I will be subject to him, if he will consent: until then I judge based on what the Lord shows me.

Reguardless of any man's credentials, I judge the conclusive statement "the Roman Catholic Church is Babylon" as utterly false. As for any other things Mr. Hunt has written in all his volumes, I certainly will not be troubled as though God Almighty has sealed up the gift of prophecy (in all its detail) until I shell out $24.95 plus shipping (or whatever)..........and yes, I did not only pay for my Holy Bible, but I would also forsake everything else I have ever worked for in order to retain it.

 

[Brain Damage]

And does Jerusalem sit on "seven hills"?

Yep and I quote Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D.

But strange as it may seem, the City of Jerusalem as it existed in the time of Christ Jesus was also reckoned to be the "City of Seven Hills." This fact was well recognized in Jewish circles. In the Pirke de-Rabbi Eliezer, an eighth century midrashic narrative (section 10), the writer mentioned without commentary (showing that the understanding was well known and required no defense) that "Jerusalem is situated on seven hills" (recorded in The Book of Legends, edited by Bialik and Ravnitzky, p. 371, paragraph 111). And, so it was. Those "seven hills" are easy to identify. If one starts with the Mount of Olives just to the east of the main City of Jerusalem (but still reckoned to be located within the environs of Jerusalem), there are three summits to that Mount of Olives. The northern summit (hill) is called Scopus [Hill One], the middle summit (hill) was called Nob [Hill Two], the highest point of Olivet itself, and the southern summit (hill) was called in the Holy Scriptures the "Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offence" [Hill Three] (II Kings 23:13). On the middle ridge between the Kedron and the Tyropoeon Valleys there was (formerly) in the south "Mount Zion" [Hill Four] (the original "Mount Zion" and not the later southwest hill that was later called by that name), then the "Ophel Mount" [Hill Five] and then to the north of that the "Rock" around which "Fort Antonia" was built [Hill Six]. And finally, there was the southwest hill itself [Hill Seven] that finally became known in the time of Simon the Hasmonean as the new "Mount Zion." This makes "Seven Hills" in all.
http://askelm.com/prophecy/p000201.htm

 

[StJohnCalvin]

Dave Hunt's book A Woman rides the Beast, says that Babylon is none other than the Roman Catholic Church.
Comments?
à

Many more qualified to comment on Dave Hunt than I, have discussed with him in public, through open letters, and many have tried numerous times to go to him and in love show him where he was in error.

That being said, there have been those throughout the past few centuries who have said that the Roman Catholic Church is Babylon, the Beast, and many other things.

I would like to see exegesis of any passage of Scripture which demonstrates this to be the case. I say exegesis, because if we exegete any of the passages, we will not find the RCC...

Love in Christ for the sake of the truth of the Gospel in His Church

 

[Kingdom_Come]

Actually, the RCC is very wealthy, has been for about 1600 years. And the RCC has historically been involved in lots of trade, they were some of the best clients of the Italian city-state banks in the Middle ages.

And speaking of wealthy and powerful nations, did you know that Vatican city is not only very wealthy, but is also a soveriegn nation?

Simply put the RCC does not fit the description given of Mystery Babylon in Rev. Chapters 17 and 18.

And does Jerusalem sit on "seven hills"?. Because I know that Rome does, and that is who was persecuting the Christians when John wrote this. So if you put 2 and 2 together...

You may want to avoid the 7 hills discussion as you may be surprised to find out how many cities actually “sit” on seven hills as it were. Also why it seems to escape people that these seven “mountains” are the seven heads of the beast, as the seven heads of the beast are the same heads of the beast empires recorded in Daniel is a mystery to me. Why people insist that this symbol is literal I do not understand. The woman herself is a symbol. She is also described as sitting on many waters. The waters are revealed to be many different people who speak many different languages over which this nation being spoken about governs.

So if the image of her sitting on many waters is not literal why would the image of her sitting on 7 hills be? Rather the woman represents a great nation or empire or as described by the angel a “great city” and the 7 mountains (which are the seven heads) represent kingdoms or “kings” over which she has dominion and influence, also revealed by the angel. The image of her sitting on many waters demonstrates the kinds of people she rules over. The image of her sitting on seven hills demonstrates her dominion over the other major nations of the world at that time. Read over Daniel 7, Revelation 13, 17 and 18 to get a better picture of what is going on.

 

[Affinity]

Yes it does.
Zion, Moriah, Arca, Ophel, Bezetha, Millo, and the rock of the tower of Antonia.


Since Jews were persecuting Christians when John wrote Revelation as well , your 2+2 theory isn't really werkin fer me.

Really? Well why don't we factor into this equation who was more of a threat, to the Christians as well as the Jews, but especially to the seven churches in Western Asia Minor (Turkey) to which the letter was foremost intended. Maybe then it'll all add up for you.

 

[Affinity]

Simply put the RCC does not fit the description given of Mystery Babylon in Rev. Chapters 17 and 18.

No, but the city/empire of Rome at the time when John wrote the revelation does.

 

[Barraco]

Dave Hunt's book A Woman rides the Beast, says that Babylon is none other than the Roman Catholic Church.
Comments?
à

I agree. The woman mentioned in Rev. 12 stands for the pure Church, which started with Christ's advent. It went into hiding when the Church of Rome became corrupt. This all started in the middle of the third century when the Roman Emperors started persecuting Christians. They threatened them with death if they did not practice pagan practices. Many of priests shrank from death. Now, around 254 i think, there was a conflict within the Church of Rome about whether those apostate priests were allowed back into the Church and become priests again. Novatius was against it. Cornelius I said that the Bishop of Rome had the authority to forgive such sins. Well, Cornelius was elected Bishop of Rome and thus were the apostates allowed back into the Church. Novatius left, which is where we get Novatianism from. The Donatists also took the similar route because of the apostasy. They believed the Church of Rome was corrupted and apostate.

Well, it just so happens that this is the same Church that influenced Constantine to legalize Christianity. They also compromised much of their doctrines at the Council of Laodicea, including the observance of the seventh day sabbath to the first day, which there was no authority upon any man to do such.

Well, through time, many kings were influenced by the Church of Rome to make imperialistic decisions. The heads of the beast that she rides on are these: They are seven hills, which indicates the city of Rome. And there are seven kings. Now to understand who the kings are, you have to remember what Rev. 17:6 says, and its very important. It says that the woman was DRUNKEN with the blood of the saints, which indicates the time frame of which head she is sitting on. This was the sixth head, which 'is.' Now during the time that the most saints and martyrs were slaughtered by her was during the German Holy Roman Empire. This dynasty of emperors was set up by Otto the Great in 962. So the five heads that had fallen are these: Romans (Constantine 325), Heruli (Odaocer 476), Ostrogoths (Theodocius, I think that is his name. Theo something ), the Byzantines (Justinian I 538), and the Franks (Charlamagne 800.) This is all from my memory of history, so please look it up if you are dissatisfied. I love correction. The seventh head that 'is not yet' was the Italians who by aid of Benito Mussolini in 1929 returned the Papal power back to the pope with the papal states. Then, after WWII, the Catholic Church began influencing all these once more. Thus the eigth head is all of the seven put together. I'm not certain about the ten kings. I'm not Einstien ya know. lol. Any who, during the German rule of the Holy Roman Empire, the pope influenced the citizens of the kingdom to persecute the Christians, even as far as calling crusades against them. Take the Waldenses for example.

 

[Barraco]

What's wrong with books on Bible interpretations?

If man's attempts at Bible interpretation were totally pointless and fruitless, what have theologians been doing for the past 1900 years? Wasting there time?

Not at all! Bible commentaries and interpretation have been very helpful for many reasons throughout the years. And I can't say I've ever heard of anyone just picking up the Bible, reading the book of Revelation with no commentary or study to follow, and just understand it. That's a hard book, and there's lots of views on it, but if one were to follow your advice, they'd probably come up with yet another view, know what I mean? So the advice you give is not practical, and books written on the Bible and what it means are very useful.

I agree. Its by studying other interpretations that we can come up with our own. The glory of it all is that almost every different interpretation has some information that opens our eyes to the truth.

 

[TheScottsMen]

Hi kerr

No That is just not true......................well it is true that there are hundreds of denominations but there are because they are all refusing to accept God's plain words.

Please let me show you .......Pick any symbol in scripture you wish and I will show you with scripture the plain explanation.

Alright. Please let "Just The Facts" answer my question -- in God's plain words - since you bring none of your traditions or preconceived notions into the text.

Tell me, what is the Gospel?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And I can't say I've ever heard of anyone just picking up the Bible, reading the book of Revelation with no commentary or study to follow, and just understand it.

The second time I read it through I felt I understood it, but then I never read books outside of the Bible. If one has to go outside the Bible to understand it, then they simply haven't read it enough.

Daniel 10:14 "Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to Your People in the latter days, for the vision [refers] to [many] days yet [to come."]

John 11:48 if we may let him alone thus, all will believe in him; and the Romans will come, and will take away both our place and nation.'

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing! and Measure Ye! the Sanctuary/Naos of the God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it! 2 And the Court [#833], the one within[#2081] the Sanctuary/Naos [#3485] be Casting- Out! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

 

[Affinity]

The second time I read it through I felt I understood it, but then I never read books outside of the Bible. If one has to go outside the Bible to understand it, then they simply haven't read it enough.

Daniel 10:14 "Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to Your People in the latter days, for the vision [refers] to [many] days yet [to come."]

John 11:48 if we may let him alone thus, all will believe in him; and the Romans will come, and will take away both our place and nation.'

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing! and Measure Ye! the Sanctuary/Naos of the God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it! 2 And the Court [#833], the one within[#2081] the Sanctuary/Naos [#3485] be Casting- Out! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

I don't see how repetious reading nessesarily leads to understanding.

 

[Lynn73]

I agree with Dave. Read the Bible, not some book written by a mere man. Read especially Danial and Revelation. They go together hand in hand and are right on target for the times we are living in.

The Bible interpets itself. I would stick with the Bible, it is the one sure source of information we have, and it doesn't change.

midnightcry

I've read Dave Hunt's book "A Woman Rides the Beast" and I agree with him about the RCC. That's about all I can say. It has a lot of information to ponder.

 

[Barraco]

All I know is that History proves that the Mystery Babylon is the Church of Rome.

 

[Athanasian Creed]

Just what I'd take seriously a book written by a CPA with an undergraduate math degree.

So what??? Many of the Prophets and Apostles had less than prolific 'careers' when God called them (and used them mightly)

Whom the Spirit of the Lord calls to teach/admonish/warn He enables with His power and wisdom.

Back to the OP - i believe 100% that Dave Hunt is correct in his identifying the 'harlot of Babylon' I've read the book twice and he delves exhaustively into the history of the RCC and it's doctrines, backing up his premise using secular, Catholic and Christian sources.

He most certainly did his homework!

FYI - Mystery Babylon = Rome = Vatican City - the words "Rome" and "Vatican" are universally used interchangeably.

The Great harlot and the Antichrist

1And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters: 2With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. 7And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. (Revelation 17)



The Great harlot is identified as:

• A woman
• A harlot
• Dressed in scarlet and purple
• Decked with gold, precious stones, etc.
• Drunk with the blood of saints and martyrs
• Is located in the city on seven hills
• Mother of harlots and abominations
• In league with the Antichrist (the beast)

The Roman Catholic Church in light of these biblical markers:

• The RCC has always referred to herself as a woman (sic., "holy mother the Church.")
• The Bible consistently identifies apostate religion as a harlot.
• Scarlet and purple are the colors of the college of cardinals (top leaders of the RCC).
• The pope, cardinals and bishops are ever "decked with gold, precious stones, expensive garments.
• The history of the RCC is one of great inquisition and slaughter of Bible believing people.
• Rome is the only "city on seven hills" in the world.
• Pope John Paul II has been performing abominations, such as kissing the Qu'ran and becoming a disciple of a Hindu Shiva Priestess. (http://www.infowars.com/articles/nwo/occult_pope_receives_mark_of_shiva.htm)
• The RCC is headquartered in Rome, the city of seven hills.
• The very term "Rome" is understood as a reference to the RCC.
• The "league with the Antichrist" is yet future.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma/romewatch/page18.html


Ray

 

[parousia70]

Really? Well why don't we factor into this equation who was more of a threat, to the Christians as well as the Jews, but especially to the seven churches in Western Asia Minor

Yes, why don't we factor that in. Who was the biggest threat to Christians in the 1st century? Rome? Hardly, for they merely persecuted their flesh, it was the Judaizers who threatened their eternal soul, which is why Paul so often warned about them. The Most significant enemies to the first century Church when John penned Revelation were the Judaizers who tried, through heavy persecution, to bring the New Testament saints back under the bondage of the Law, the success of which, unlike Roman persecution, meant ETERNAL defeat for the Christian who succomed to it.

to the seven churches to which the letter was foremost intended.

I would agree that the letter was foremost intended for them back then, and not us today. great point!