Dave Hunt says RCC is Babylon

[Brain Damage]

Hi Kerr

No I disagree...............what people do is ignore the explanation and put their own explanation on the symbol.

A good example of this is the Dragon.

We are told in very plain terms it is Satan.

Yet we have dozens of doctrines out there that say it is Red China


Every single symbols is explained in very plain language you just have to trust God and his explanation

I agree , that's why when I read , "and in her was found the blood of prophets" , I don't try and make stuff up just to suit my theology , I just look for the biblical interpretation such as :

Mt 23:37 - "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!

 

[KerrMetric]

Hi

No I am not interpreting at all.......I am accepting God's plain words.

9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world:

To say the dragon is anything other than what God says it is, is interpreting.............accepting what God says is Trusting the Plain Words of God.

I am not talking about this particular passage you have quoted. I am talking about the FACT your interpretation is just that yours.

Quit giving me this "I am accepting God's plain words" nonsense. If they were that plain there wouldn't be thousands of denominations. The fact is we all interpret with metaphor and allegory to a lesser or greater degree.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi kerr

No That is just not true......................well it is true that there are hundreds of denominations but there are because they are all refusing to accept God's plain words.

Please let me show you .......Pick any symbol in scripture you wish and I will show you with scripture the plain explanation.

 

[OhhJim]

Did the Catholics do this

24: And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

The Inquisition killed a lot of people for various reasons. So, yes, you could interpret the verse that way.

I believe that the Babylons of Rev. 17 and 18 might be different entities. "Mystery Babylon", as opposed to "Babylon the Great". Listen, if you're going to call a city or a country by a name that nobody else uses, it's not splitting hairs to think that "mystery"<>"the great".

 

[KerrMetric]

.......Pick any symbol in scripture you wish and I will show you with scripture the plain explanation.

Do you believe "plain" is automatically correct?

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

I believe that if God tells us the Dragon is Satan then the Dragon is Satan. To me that is plain and is automatically right.

Pick another symbol if you feel that one is too obvious.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Did the Catholics do this

24: And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

The Inquisition killed a lot of people for various reasons. So, yes, you could interpret the verse that way.

I believe that the Babylons of Rev. 17 and 18 might be different entities. "Mystery Babylon", as opposed to "Babylon the Great". Listen, if you're going to call a city or a country by a name that nobody else uses, it's not splitting hairs to think that "mystery"<>"the great".

Matt 23:34 "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: [some] of them you will kill and crucify, and [some] of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth,

Matt 23:38 "See! Your House is left to you a Wilderness;

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing!!!!! and Measure Ye!!!!! the Sanctuary/Temple of the God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it/him ! 2 And the Court [#833], the one within[#2081] the Sanctuary/Temple [#3485] be Casting Out!!!!! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

 

[KerrMetric]

Hi

I believe that if God tells us the Dragon is Satan then the Dragon is Satan. To me that is plain and is automatically right.

Pick another symbol if you feel that one is too obvious.

Exodus, as described in the OT or not?

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Brain

I agree the Jews killed the prophets but they did not kill the Saints did they. Nor did they kill all who have been slain. While Some Saints were killed in Jerusalem like Stephen, many more were killed in Rome or Roman Territory like Asia Minor, and Greece. Matthew was killed in Ethiopia. The Roman coliseum seen tens of thousands of Christians Murdered&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. Jerusalem had nothing to do with this,

That is why some say the harlot is Jerusalem as you do because scripture is clear she killed the prophets others says it is Rome because she killed the Saints and martyrs. others say it is the Catholic church because of evil men in her midst and the victims of their evil.

The reality is it can be none of these while each of these does indeed have the blood of one group or another on their hands none of them has all the blood on its hands. Since we know in prophetic scripture a woman is to be considered a religion or belief. We must look to what each of these groups have in common did they all follow the same lie.

Did Jerusalem take on the religion of those around it..................the answer is yes they did.

Did Rome adopt religions of lands conquered the answer is yes.

Did the Catholic Church adopt aspects of other religions into its belief the answer is Yes.

What all these groups have in common is they adopted in whole or in part the Doctrines of the harlot.

It is this lie, this doctrine of the harlot that is responsible for these deaths by taking in this doctrine and enforcing the belief structure of these doctrine each of these groups or should I say members of each of these groups killed the righteous. The jews the prophets&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;the Romans the Saints And Martyrs &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..and other Nations the rest of the slain of the earth.

Look here

18: And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come,

Not Jerusalem not Rome but the Nations because this lie has infected every Nation on Earth.

2: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Since a woman is a belief system what it says is in this belief is found the blood of the prophets and Saints and all who have been slain.


Hi Little

The passage you quote does not say they killed all the righteous it just says that they will pay for their part

35: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth,

In Fact it says the opposite DOESN'T it. It does not say that On your hands is the righteous blood it says that your actions against Jesus and the Early Church will bring this blood of all the previous righteous murdered upon you. Not that it is NOW upon you but that your actions will bring it upon you.

This has to do with this.

Mt:23:30: And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

In the Above verse the Pharisees admit that their Fathers killed the prophets but claim they would not do such a thing. They did worse they Killed Messiah.


Hi Kerr

I am not sure what it is you are asking. Are you asking if I believe exodus happened as recorded in scripture.

 

[ross3421]

I understand that there have been martyres around the world however scripture only references "saints" being killed at Jerusalem alongwith the prophets. The saints being killed are not referenced to any other city.

Mt 23:37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Ac 26:10Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.


Babylon (Jerusalem) will do the same in the end - time.

Re 18:24And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.




"all those slain UPON the earth" references those which are to be killed by Christ on his return. They will literally be UPON the earth as the birds ect.... eat thier flesh.

Re 19:21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Mark

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi ross

I think you are putting on the verse a particular belief about what a saint is or who is a saint.

6: And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus:

9: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

I think in scripture's eyes any Martyr is a Saint. While there can be no doubt that Jerusalem or the Jews at Jerusalem did kill and Martyr many early Christians it pails in comparison to those killed by Nero let alone those killed by the other persecutions of Christians in the Empire. The killing of Christians went on for hundreds of years.

Notice who the Dragon rises up to hunt down the offspring of the Woman in Rev 12-13 it is not Jerusalem it is Rome whom the Dragon gives its power and its seat.

13:2: And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

12:9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world:

2:13: I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is:

The Dragon is Satan and Satan’s seat was in Pergamos.

What people need to do is ask themselves why was Satan’ seat in Pergamos.

There are many other things that show us this the harlot is not Jerusalem. Notice the harlot rides the beast of rev 17: Jerusalem never controlled Rome.

The Seat of Satan is the religion of Satan……… the Lie of Satan…………..the harlot is this lie.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I understand that there have been martyres around the world however scripture only references "saints" being killed at Jerusalem alongwith the prophets. The saints being killed are not referenced to any other city.

Mt 23:37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Ac 26:10Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.


Babylon (Jerusalem) will do the same in the end - time.

Re 18:24And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Hi Brain

I agree the Jews killed the prophets but they did not kill the Saints did they. Nor did they kill all who have been slain. While Some Saints were killed in Jerusalem like Stephen, many more were killed in Rome or Roman Territory like Asia Minor, and Greece. Matthew was killed in Ethiopia. The Roman coliseum seen tens of thousands of Christians Murdered&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. Jerusalem had nothing to do with this,

Well, the jewish rulers certainly didn't help the christian cause with the profound statement. They essentially made themselves even worst than the romans!!!!!

John 19:15 But they cried out, "Away with [Him,] away with [Him!] Crucify Him!" Pilate said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar!"

Matt 23:38 "See! Your House is left to you a Wilderness;

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing!!!!! and Measure Ye!!!!! the Sanctuary/Temple of God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it/him ! 2 And the Court [#833], the one within[#2081] the Sanctuary/Temple [#3485] be Casting Out!!!!! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

Hi

I believe that if God tells us the Dragon is Satan then the Dragon is Satan. To me that is plain and is automatically right.

Pick another symbol if you feel that one is too obvious.

Hi JTF,

In fact if anyone truly studies prophecy they will know it isn’t that simple. One of the meanings assigned to this beast symbol is Satan. This is because on the spiritual front he is the ring leader of it all. However we also know from Revelation 13 that this same beast with the seven heads and 10 horns represents the beasts described in Daniel. When we read Daniel 7 we know that these beasts represent kingdoms in the earth. These are also explained in Scripture.

The meaning of this symbol is not singular. Later on in Revelation we read about the beast as one who will be worshipped by the world and will lead the armies of the earth into the battle of Armageddon. The beast and the false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire yet Satan will not be cast into the lake of fire at that time (even though in the passage you mention we are told that this dragon beast with seven heads and ten horns is Satan). Again it is just proof that the interpretation of this symbol is layered, not singular.

 

[Dale]

JusttheFacts in post #5:
<< This Woman is a belief system that was taught to mankind in the Garden it is the Lie of the Serpent. >>

There are at least two major problems with your view here.

First, you make the Scarlet Woman in Revelation so general that no such thing can be located. This view also leads to contradiction.

"The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire."
--Revelation 17:16 NIV

So if the prostitute, the Scarlet Woman, stands for pure evil, why is she ruined, eaten and burned by the Antichrist? If this is so, then it is the Antichrist who destroys evil. That can't be.

Second, you assume that the Scarlet Woman drinking the blood of the saints is an image intended to apply to all of human history. I don't believe this is true, it only applies to the time of the end.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Kingdom

That is where you are mistaken each of those things is described differently.

First the Dragon

You will notice this is clearly identified as the Dragon it is not the beast of Rev 13: In fact we are told that the dragon gives his seat to the Beast of Rev 13 further showing us they are not the same beast.

Next Rev 13:

1: And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Notice the crowns are on the Horns not the heads. this beast also has all the features of Daniel&#8217;s four beasts.

Daniel's fourth Beast.

7: After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

In Daniel none of the horns are stated as having Crowns.

Now rev 17:

3: So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

here the beast is identified as scarlet while scarlet is a shade of red it is not just red.

What is interesting here is that it IS NOT the same word for scarlet as for red.

In fact scarlet is used to describe red cloths&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; it was an Imperial Colour in Rome attached to the priesthood of the magi and the Colour exclusive to the Church after 450AD.

John seems to be implying scarlet to this beast for a reason. One that is not clear at first glance but a deeper look will explain why.

The point is each of these beasts is different they are not the same beast. While many Christian faiths teach these as the same beast the verses just do not support this view.To say they arethe same is to add to the plain words of God.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

You will notice this is clearly identified as the Dragon it is not the beast of Rev 13: In fact we are told that the dragon gives his seat to the Beast of Rev 13 further showing us they are not the same beast.

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Look the same to me. Description fits nicely. I don’t see a difference here.

Notice the crowns are on the Horns not the heads. this beast also has all the features of Daniel’s four beasts.

In Daniel none of the horns are stated as having Crowns.

Indeed it does. You do understand that crowns represent authority or rule. As such the 10 horns are revealed to be 10 kings who have not received a kingdom yet but will receive their authority at the time of the rise of the beast to power (reference Rev. 17:12). In the same way the crowns on the 7 heads also represents authority, the authority of the world powers being spoken about at that time. The fact that these descriptions are identical with regard to the 7 heads and 10 horns of the beast and dragon reveal that they are one and the same. As you pointed out the dragon (or Satan) gives power to the beast which explains one of the layers of this symbol.

Certainly you are not implying that because Daniel did not mention crowns in his description that these are not the same beast? It is quite obvious from John’s description that they are one and the same. In the same way the description of the dragon in Chapter 12 of Revelation is the same 7 headed, 10 horned beast described for us in Chapter 13. The seven heads are the combined number of heads from the 4 beasts in Daniel’s vision recorded in Daniel Chapter 7 (thus explaining the 4 main kingdoms that come together in Revelation’s beast in chapter 13. In Daniel they are described separate at their rise. In Revelation they are described together at their fall). The 10 horns are specific to the 4th and final kingdom to rise in the book of Daniel indicating that these kings all come from that final nation or empire.

The point is each of these beasts is different they are not the same beast. While many Christian faiths teach these as the same beast the verses just do not support this view.To say they arethe same is to add to the plain words of God.

Not so. The description given ties them together as does the explanation of the beast receiving its power (or authority) from Satan. In other words once again the imagery matches the interpretation of the imagery. You have taken a few details and tried to come up with two separate beasts but this simply does not fly. The similarities are too distinct as to fail to recognize the correlation (the 7 heads and 10 horns really give it away).

Sorry it took me so long to reply to this one but I must have missed it a while back and it is not always practical for me to visit and respond to each reply.

 

[rhymnrzn2zion]

Dave Hunt sells books. The gifts of the spirit, such as true prophecy, cannot be sold for money.

The harlot says "none seeth me", until the Lord causes her shame to be seen.

Wicked Babylon.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

JusttheFacts in post #5:
<< This Woman is a belief system that was taught to mankind in the Garden it is the Lie of the Serpent. >>

There are at least two major problems with your view here.

First, you make the Scarlet Woman in Revelation so general that no such thing can be located. This view also leads to contradiction.

"The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire."
--Revelation 17:16 NIV

So if the prostitute, the Scarlet Woman, stands for pure evil, why is she ruined, eaten and burned by the Antichrist? If this is so, then it is the Antichrist who destroys evil. That can't be.

LOL. I have never seen it shown like that before and in some ways it "almost" makes sense. The antichrist brings down His own "kingdom", the Harlot.

 

[Linda63]

Dave Hunt sells books. The gifts of the spirit, such as true prophecy, cannot be sold for money.

The harlot says "none seeth me", until the Lord causes her shame to be seen.

Wicked Babylon.

TBC: A Brief History

Seven years after the release of The Seduction of Christianity in 1985, its authors, Dave Hunt and T.A. McMahon, also joined forces on another front. They began a ministry for the purpose of encouraging spiritual discernment among those who regarded themselves as biblical Christians. The primary vehicle for this endeavor was through the publication of the newsletter The Berean Call. Behind every article is the exhortation to believers to get back into the Word of God instead of being “carried about by every wind of doctrine,” and to equip them with materials to help them walk in the truth.

http://www.thebereancall.org/AboutTBC/index.php

The Berean Call, Dave Hunt's ministry is non-profit--they do not make any profit from selling their books, Bibles, etc. Let me ask you this:

Did you purchase your Bible? Do you buy books written by other authors, other than Dave Hunt? Does it cost money to produce this information?

Since when is Dave Hunt selling the gifts of the Spirit? That's absolutely ridiculous! BTW--the newsletter is mailed free to anyone who desires it--it also can be emailed free. You might want to check out the website--

Remember--We owed a debt we could not pay. Jesus paid a debt He did not owe. Salvation is the FREE gift of God's grace.

 

[Affinity]

Revelation 18 describes attributes of the end-times Babylon that could not possibly be that of the Catholic Church. For example, a very high wealth and trade capacity. It's obviously refering to a very wealthy and very powerful nation that values wealth more than anything else. That said, I do believe mainstream mass-comercialized christianity (whether catholic or protestant) is completely controlled by satan, because of its degree of superficiality.

Actually, the RCC is very wealthy, has been for about 1600 years. And the RCC has historically been involved in lots of trade, they were some of the best clients of the Italian city-state banks in the Middle ages.

And speaking of wealthy and powerful nations, did you know that Vatican city is not only very wealthy, but is also a soveriegn nation?