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Originally posted by Satoshi
So everything needs a creator except your hypothetical creator? Special pleading.
Originally posted by Josephus
Jerry Smith:
I will guarantee you will not find God as a result of these discussions, but I can certainly give you enough doubt to consider for a moment that perhaps God may in fact be playing a role in these things.
Originally posted by s0uljah
You too! You know your stuff, thats obvious.
Anyway, I have no problem with evolution. And as far as no explanation of what was before matter/energy, it doesn't make sense to say we just don't know, and stop there. We don't have any scientific explanation, but we have a logical one.
Either existence is real or it isn't. If it is, which I think you will agree is true, then there had to be a "something" in the first place. Given that "something" can't come from nothing, only one explanation fits, that there was a Creator, that is infinite. And He is the only true infinite "thing" in the universe. That is the point where we can stop, no?
Originally posted by Jerry Smith
If you like to take it beyond the scientific evidence into the realm of philosophy, I will not follow you there to debate it. My real interest lies in what can be known with scientific accuracy, not what seems to make sense from philosophy. Of course, I see no problem with such philosophical speculations, I just do not have a special interest in them.
Thanks, by the way, for your kind words. It is like a breath of fresh air to encounter civility and courtesy in a debate about evolution.
Originally posted by s0uljah
"Special Pleading" is a fallacy in which a person applies rules to others while taking himself as exempt, without providing adequate justification for the exemption.
God is the beginning and the end. He had no creator, he just IS. He is infinity...in fact, He is logic. True or False, 0 or 1. Nothing else is truly infinite, hence, the exemption.
Originally posted by Satoshi
Which is indeed what you did, and continue to do below.
Sorry, but just because you repeat your assertion, it doesn't make it any more true. Incidentally, what do you mean by "infinite?" Infinitely small? Infinitely brown? Just saying that something is infinite without mentioning which attribute is infinite is somewhat confusing.
Originally posted by Josephus
Jerry Smith:
"Tell me how much order is predicted to exist in a created universe relative to an uncreated one. What measurements of order have been made in our universe to check the predictions of your theory?"
An uncreated universe could not exist. Hence, no order. A created universe would have at least a "Planck" version of order over an uncreated one. Is this so hard to understand?
"Sure, perhaps (?)... What is your evidence that it actually did occur this way? That would be the evidence that would confirm your theory - if your predictions are derived correctly."
I'm glad you finally understand where I'm comming from from this theory. Next time, please bother to read the whole post before replying point by point - otherwise you might find that you and I agree on the very thing you think I'm disagreeing with you about. You might not find your foot in your mouth as often too.
My response to this question would be this: there is only one possible factor of evidence - an historical account of the actual event.
If there is other evidence, then tell me what other evidence should we find if indeed God is correct?
Since God is a witness to this, I would certainly consider him innocent in falsifying his record of the event until proven guilty.
Now if you're satisfied with this issue, please say so. If you are really troubled by it, then please, let's continue it. I will guarantee you will not find God as a result of these discussions, but I can certainly give you enough doubt to consider for a moment that perhaps God may in fact be playing a role in these things.
Originally posted by s0uljah
The logical fallacy you mentioned has a definition, does it not? I listed it, which explained that it is only a fallacy if the exemption is not given. I then gave the exemption, I didn't repeat my assertion.
Originally posted by Satoshi
Post #59 [s0uljah]: In your last paragraph here, you claim that existence requires a cause. This cause can only be a Creator that is infinite.
Thus, you claim that everything except this Creator needs a cause, except the hypothetical Creator. Thus, you make up a rule (that everything needs a cause), while making the Creator exempt because he is infinite in some undefined way. This vague excuse is indeed inadequete justification as it's merely an assertion. When I called you on this, you then repeated the assertion that the Creator is infinite. I must admit that you added the seemingly contradictory claims that the Creator is also logic, 0 or 1, and true or false, but I don't think that detracts from your repetition of your assertion.
Originally posted by Josephus
Yes. The chances of this universe existing for us to exist. Even Stephen Hawking is at a point where he reconizes the need for God to explain the perfection and apparent chances for everything to have gone right for such an impossibly-existing universe comming into existence. The chances I think are like 1 in 10 to the 63 power. And that's just for one factor. There are perhaps at least 75 factors necessary..if you think of all the chances for all these factors to be right and perfect for our existence, then personally, I think, it requires more faith to believe it happened that way, than to believe God is responsible for creation.
"It would not even require one to abandon science, because the Bible doesn't say that man did not have a common ancestor with all other living things, just that God is the one that created man and other living things."
If you believe that, then you're missing the idea that God destroyed every liviing thing on the world in Noah's time, so where only Noah and his family survived. Noah is a direct descendent of Adam.
Originally posted by Josephus
"So your evidence for creation is your bald assertion that the universe could not exist apart from being created by a supernatural entity? Do you have evidence for that assertion?"
Yes. The chances of this universe existing for us to exist. Even Stephen Hawking is at a point where he reconizes the need for God to explain the perfection and apparent chances for everything to have gone right for such an impossibly-existing universe comming into existence. The chances I think are like 1 in 10 to the 63 power. And that's just for one factor. There are perhaps at least 75 factors necessary..if you think of all the chances for all these factors to be right and perfect for our existence, then personally, I think, it requires more faith to believe it happened that way, than to believe God is responsible for creation.
"So, what was your evidence that God entered time at precisely where the matter/energy ratio was 1/1?"
It's a theory. To explain a possibility which explains what we observe today: the bible says 3 days passed when God created the earth. With that end result, I work backwards, using all science available to me today to come up with a sound theory.
"Since creation preceded the existence of humans (and life for that matter), we are not likely to find such a document. If one was uncovered, and verified to be reliable as an account of creation, then it would serve as evidence of creation's hypothesis. "
Such a document could be created. Easily. You're not thinking temporaly. God created Adam, and it was most likely that the account we read in Genesis is actually Adam's account of Creation and the beginning of history as God told him who in turn told his family - for then on the whole world would know through "accepted" family history. This oral account was passed down 14 generations, through the bottleneck of Noah, to the time when Moses was born, and it was finally recorded in the Hebrew original from which copies exist today. Though this account could have been recorded much earlier, and quite possibly may have been a book on Noah's ark - but that is just speculation using common sense.
"If you accept the idea that the Bible is the word of God, that would make the basic premise that "God created" a given. It would still be a faith position, not based on evidence."
As I said, mathematically, it makes sense to believe in a God than to accept the impossible chances for the existence of existence. Ultimately it is a faith issue, no matter which side of the fence you are on.
"It would not even require one to abandon science, because the Bible doesn't say that man did not have a common ancestor with all other living things, just that God is the one that created man and other living things."
If you believe that, then you're missing the idea that God destroyed every liviing thing on the world in Noah's time, so where only Noah and his family survived. Noah is a direct descendent of Adam.
"However, I am kind of skeptically minded, and I will tend to dismiss those considerations unless I can hope to see some evidence to confirm them."
Might I suggest a website: http://www.mooreonlife.com It's currently down for maintenance, but when it's back up, I invite you to listen to the Real Audio message answering the 7 common objections and questions about Christianity, God, and Faith.
"As I mentioned to s0uljah, I have no problem with philosophical ideas of creationism. I only have problems with attacks on science inspired by certain, very specific, unsupportable views of creation."
You will be surprised to find then, that you and I are on the same team.
And that is the main point. We have proof, they have blind faith.
Originally posted by Josephus
"I think that this is poor evidence."
Then what will convince you?
It is Psalms that says "A man is a fool if he says in his heart 'there is no God'." Notice it says heart, and not mind. Obviously, the mind has all the evidence it needs.
"It may be that virtually every combination of "factors" could produce life of some kind. "
It MAY be or it MAY NOT be. We can't know. I personally would not stake my eternal soul on such odds and chances.
"If you have a position on the ultimate nature of the beginning of the universe, then yes - it is a faith issue. I don't. "
You don't? Let me ask you this question: why are you pursuing the answers to these questions about evidence? Are you wanting a position?
Originally posted by Josephus
Yes. The chances of this universe existing for us to exist. Even Stephen Hawking is at a point where he reconizes the need for God to explain the perfection and apparent chances for everything to have gone right for such an impossibly-existing universe comming into existence. The chances I think are like 1 in 10 to the 63 power. And that's just for one factor. There are perhaps at least 75 factors necessary..if you think of all the chances for all these factors to be right and perfect for our existence, then personally, I think, it requires more faith to believe it happened that way, than to believe God is responsible for creation.
As I said, mathematically, it makes sense to believe in a God than to accept the impossible chances for the existence of existence. Ultimately it is a faith issue, no matter which side of the fence you are on.
If you believe that, then you're missing the idea that God destroyed every liviing thing on the world in Noah's time, so where only Noah and his family survived. Noah is a direct descendent of Adam.
Originally posted by Jerry Smith
and we discover that the prediction is born out by data properly collected from nature
A person who does not believe in God probably doesn't see anything especially compelling about this Bible verse.
Assuming I had an eternal soul, I would not voluntarily stake it on any position held in spite of ignorance.
But we can't choose what we believe.
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