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Darwin's Evolution?

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by Stormy, Jul 25, 2002.

  1. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Some other references for ya...

    "By thee have I been holden up from the womb: thou art he that took me out of my mother's bowels: my praise [shall be] continually of thee." - Psalms 71:6
    "Lo, children [are] an heritage of the Lord: [and] the fruit of the womb [is his] reward." - Psalms 127:3
    "For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb." - Psalms 139:13
    "Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?" - Job 31:15
    "Thus saith the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, [which] will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen." - Isaiah 44:2
    "Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb [to be] his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength." - Isaiah 49:1, 5
    "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." - Jeremiah 1:5

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    What The Catechism of the Catholic Church says on "Abortion:"

    2271. "Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law: You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish. [Didache 2, 2: SCh 248, 148; cf. Ep. Barnabae 19, 5: PG 2, 777; Ad Diognetum 5, 6: PG 2, 1173; Tertullian, Apol. 9: PL 1, 319-320.] God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes. [GS 51 # 3.]"
    2272. "Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. 'A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,' [CIC, can. 1398.] 'by the very commission of the offense,' [CIC, can. 1314.] and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. [Cf. CIC, cann. 1323-1324.] The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society."
    2274. "Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being. Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, 'if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual.... It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence.' [CDF, Donum vitae I, 2.]"
    2322. "From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a 'criminal' practice (GS 27 # 3), gravely contrary to the moral law. The Church imposes the canonical penalty of excommunication for this crime against human life."
     
  2. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Sperm is alive, isn't it?  A fertilized egg is "alive," isn't it.  Arbitrary definitions of an alive fetus in human courts of law are irrelevant.
     
  3. RufusAtticus

    RufusAtticus PopGen Grad Student

    +9
    So gametes are sacred? How far back in time does that go? Were our non-human ancestors sacred life? What about our non-human relatives?

    Are you a vegetarian?
     
  4. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Human life is sacred. It became so when God gave humans, or whatever you want to call them in the evolutionary chain, souls.
     
  5. RufusAtticus

    RufusAtticus PopGen Grad Student

    +9
    Does that make cancer sacred too? Afterall, cancer, just like gametes, is human. Do you have any moral problems with killing cancer cells?

    What about people who have a malformed conjoined twin? Is it okay to remove that extra tissue?
     
  6. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Cancer is a mutation that is bad for the body. Removing something bad for the body is not immoral...word games get old quickly.
     
  7. RufusAtticus

    RufusAtticus PopGen Grad Student

    +9
    Well, zygotes and fetuses are mutation that is bad for the (female) body. But you and I don't have to worry about that.
     
  8. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Bad for the female body?  The female body has organs that exist just for this purpose.
     
  9. RufusAtticus

    RufusAtticus PopGen Grad Student

    +9
    And yet they somehow manage to occationally die because of it.
     
  10. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Yeah...so? That isn't the norm or the intention.
     
  11. RufusAtticus

    RufusAtticus PopGen Grad Student

    +9
    Yeah...so? It still happens. The norm or intention of cancer isn't to kill an individual, but it happens. However, unlike cancer, the men who have power in this society are not at risk of dying in childbirth.
     
  12. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    I would risk my life for any of my children, born or unborn.  So that doesn't make much sense to me.

    The intention of cancer is to harm, to take over the heathy cells, and to kill. 
     
  13. RufusAtticus

    RufusAtticus PopGen Grad Student

    +9
    And it doesn't make much sense to me of why you are willing to risk someone else's life to save their children. That is a personal choice, that neither you nor anyone else can make for that person.

    Cancer has no intention. Killing the individual is just an unwelcomed side effect in some cases of uncontrolled cell division. Just as killing the mother is an unwelcomed side effect of some pregancies.
     
  14. Lanakila

    Lanakila Not responsible for the changes here.

    +208
    Atheist
    Private
    US-Others
    There are a few scriptures that teach against abortion and I will give them. I am not a Catholic and disagree with Soldjah on contraception, but I don't believe abortion is contraception, because the whole idea of contraception is preventing pregnancy. Abortion is ridding the female body of the child (yes it is a child) after conception has occured. This is the key verses for Operation Rescue, (I am not part of that group): Proverbs 31:8-9 8. "Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute.
    9. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy." In the KJV it calles the destitute fatherless.

    The verses that teach the life begins at conception are mostly found in Psalm 139:13-16 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
    14. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
    15. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
    16. your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

    The problem with this argument is it pits the mother against the child and says the mother has a right to her body, even at the expense of the child. The child though not able to speak for himself/herself has a right to live. If it is ok to kill the child before its due date, then why isn't it afterwards. This is a slippery slope and I really don't think most people think about this deeply.

    As the mother of 4 children I will say that carrying my children to term and giving birth was the greatest joy of my life. My life was never in danger, although my last babies was slightly because she was in the breach position when labor began. In the life of the mother issue in regards to abortion, I would have to say it depends on a lot of factors, and we cannot make that decision for everyone. (I am thinking of ectopic pregnacies and the like)
     
  15. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    The blood of the innocents is most sacred.  Whom is more innocent than an unborn baby?  That is why I would risk their lives, or my own wife's life, or mine, if I had a uterus.
     
  16. Stormy

    Stormy Senior Contributor

    +842
    Christian
    US-Others
    Show me one breath that we take, or one step that we make that is not in danger of being our last. You jump in your cars and cruise the highways that bring death without concern of your well-being. But when a small voice cries to be heard you tremble in fear. Why is your life more important than his? Why is your quest for more ... more important than life itself?
     
  17. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

    +3,558
    Atheist
    Innocent? Who is innocent? I thought that all humans were sinners, none righteous, all have failed in the eyes of the Lord...?
     
  18. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Its a matter of degree.
     
  19. RufusAtticus

    RufusAtticus PopGen Grad Student

    +9
    So you're willing to risk other people's lives for your own personal values. And you don't have any problems with that? What if I were willing to risk your life if it would appease the harvest gods? The innocent can't survive without food, you know.

    I did not know that in America wifes' lives were under the control of their husband. So I guess you would have no problem with a Syrian killing his wife or sister to uphold the family honor. What about sati?

    But you don't have a uterus and have no chance of getting one, so such sentiment is hollow. It's like me saying to Rosa Parks that if I were Black, I'd have no problem sitting in the back of the bus.
     
  20. RufusAtticus

    RufusAtticus PopGen Grad Student

    +9
    Sin is sin. I didn't know God looked upon some sin differently than others.
     
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