Darwin's Evolution?

Stormy

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I have an open mind. I do not search for facts to prove what I believe, rather I search for facts in general. Knowing that what I find that is true, and not imaginary, will support my beliefs.

I do not see evolution as the gradual change as expressed by Darwin. I instead see the Earth as a creation of God. I believe that evolution was the way God started life upon Earth. But I also think that God played an active part. I believe there were periods where evolution was given a boost.

Show me that I am wrong. Show me even one direct line of evolution. Do we have fossils of any of these in between creatures? Why are the missing links not readily available?

Please do not take my question as an attack upon your beliefs.
 

Morat

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*shrug*. Define a "missing link". Specifically, what do you think you should see?

  I've met many people who thought evolution would do things it doesn't. It makes it hard to show them "evidence" of something that isn't part of evolution.

   So, why don't we start simply: What's a missing link to you? What would you expect to see?
 
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Stormy

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Please do not become annoyed. This is not a contest. It is merely for my own accumalation of thought.

I believe you know what I wish. I believe that the finds that are made could only agree with me and not disagree. I don't know this by scientific means to be right but I do KNOW that I am right.

So just proof me wrong. At this point it does not have to be human. I know that would be stupid to ask for. It would have made the front page!
 
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Morat

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  Who says I'm annoyed? I'm starting at the beginning. You want to see a "missing link", which I guess means a "transitional fossil". Before I can show you one, I need to know what you mean by the term, and what you expect to see.

   I could show you, for instance, a sequence of hominid skulls. And, to go with it, the claims of creationists over whether they are "human" or "ape". Amusingly, the early skulls are all called "ape", the later skulls all called "human", and inbetween them lies...disagreement. If a skull is called by two prominent Creationists "ape" and two more call it "human", that' seems a good example.

   So once again: What characteristics do you expect to see in a transitional fossil? What would you expect a transitional species to be like?
 
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Stormy

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So once again: What characteristics do you expect to see in a transitional fossil? What would you expect a transitional species to be like?

You see... I do not care. But if you need me to pick.

Show me what a horse used to be. It started as goop. Walk me through its evolution. Show me the links.
 
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Stormy, I can't do that, but I can hit the high spots.. (you are talking about nearly 3 billion years worth of transitions!)

Goop= unicellular life forms
to multicellular life forms (this step isn't as hard as you might think. A transition like this was observed in a lab over just a few generations)

Big radiation of multicellular life forms, one line of which led to jawless fishes.
Jawless fishes to teleost fishes (with jaws).
teleost fishes to amphibians (we have some transitional fossils from this transition)
amphibians to reptiles and reptilian synapsids (we also have some transitional fossils from this transition)
reptilian synapsids to mammals (we have a quite a few transitional fossils from this transition)
mammals diversified, including one that would have looked somewhat like a dog (Hyracotherium)
Hyracotherium to horses via the transitions found here.

If you have any questions about the specifics, I will try to help --- but I'm not a paleontologist or anything...

Of course most of that lineage applies to humans too...
 
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Stormy

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Jerry: I am sure it will be simple questions to you but I am curious.

Big radiation of multicellular life forms, one line of which led to jawless fishes.

What do you mean big radiation? Is this a supposed event?

Jawless fishes to teleost fishes (with jaws).
teleost fishes to amphibians (we have some transitional fossils from this transition)
amphibians to reptiles and reptilian synapsids (we also have some transitional fossils from this transition)
reptilian synapsids to mammals (we have a quite a few transitional fossils from this transition)
mammals diversified, including one that would have looked somewhat like a dog (Hyracotherium)
Hyracotherium to horses via the transitions found here.

Where you do not say that fossils exist… then it is human imagination? How do these changes occur? What alters the DNA to produce these different species? When the animal becomes more complicated does not the DNA also become more complicated? How can evolution, on its own, add to the complexity of the creature? I have more question but these will help. I have found that the internet is not reliable. I can read the views of an evolutionist… but then have them be totally contradicted by a creationist. I do not want to find what fits my desire. I am only searching for truth. My answer seems to be a combination of two opposing forces.

But as you can see I do not understand. :help:
 
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Stormy:

I'm not sure what you're asking for. You say you believe that evolution happened, and God guided it, right? (Correct me if I'm wrong).

It seems to me that there's nothing really that can contradict your theory. Maybe God did guide it, and that's why we're all here. Maybe the invisible pink unicorn gave species homo sapiens an advantage a million years. Or maybe we were all created 5 seconds ago, with all of our memories intact.

Science can't answer questions like that, since you're talking about a supernatural event. So, I'm not sure what the point is. What are we trying to prove wrong here?
 
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Stormy

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blader: I know you guys on this forum are all in a supreme battle for the title of King Debater. Do not include me in your little game.

I have no position to prove. I state what I believe to be truth. But I am not deliberately trying to make a point nor change the mind of anyone. I am only searching for myself. Have you never been pushed to understand something for no other reason then to understand?
 
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Stormy

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Science can't answer questions like that, since you're talking about a supernatural event. So, I'm not sure what the point is. What are we trying to prove wrong here?

Blader: I want you to show me how evolution can work without Supernatural assistance. Can you answer any of my previous questions?
 
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Originally posted by Stormy
blader: I know you guys on this forum are all in a supreme battle for the title of King Debater. Do not include me in your little game.


Yes, the sole reason why we are here is to win a little paper crown to wear on our heads.

I have no position to prove. I state what I believe to be truth. But I am not deliberately trying to make a point nor change the mind of anyone. I am only searching for myself. Have you never been pushed to understand something for no other reason then to understand?

I wasn't making any point at all. I was just trying to get you to clarify your question. No need to get all defensive.
 
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Originally posted by Stormy


Blader: I want you to show me how evolution can work without Supernatural assistance.

By this, do you mean that you want to know how human beings were evolved from evolution without supernatural assistance? Or would you like to know how the process of evolution works without supernatural assistance?

I'm not trying to pretend to be slow. When I ask for clarification of your questions, please don't construe it as an attack on your beliefs. I understand your position.
 
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Stormy

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OK blader, I will try to explain. I am not asking questions to debate anyone other than myself. All through my life there have been things that I KNOW. People do not seem to understand me about this. Only once was my daughter able to grasp my meaning. But I have proven it to others time and again. This evolution seems to be something that I KNOW. But I am not like many others who try to prove themselves right at the cost of truth. How can ignoring truth bring knowledge?

So anyway, I will repeat my questions and also try to clarify. Bear with me. As I said before I am not a great scientist, but I am intelligent. If there is something more that I need to understand I will be able to grasp what you tell me.

Here are my questions again....

What do you mean big radiation? Is this a supposed event?

Where you do not say that fossils exist… then it is the basis human imagination?

How do these changes occur?

What alters the DNA to produce these different species?

When the animal becomes more complicated does not the DNA also become more complicated?

How can evolution, on its own, add to the complexity of the creature?

Now to further explain...

One of the posters who does not believe in evolution started a thread on this forum. It was for fun and asked what animal part you wish had evolved onto the human. I did not post because someone else already had my answer... wings. I have always wished to fly like the birds.

But wishing does not make it so. I do not have wings. The little that I know about DNA would leave me to believe that in order to have a part that I never had before would require an addition onto my DNA. I would have to become even more complex on the molecular level of my DNA. It would have to be altered and added to for me to create wings. But I cannot do this!! I do not know how to create myself a pair of wings!

So if I cannot create wings with the wonderful IQ that God blessed me with, then I want an explanation of how goop… can turn itself into a fish just because it wishes to be? How can a fish turn into a reptile just because he wishes? How can a reptile turn into a mammal just because he wishes?

So tell me their secret! How can I alone add to the complexity of my DNA?

I really want those wings! :angel:
 
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What do you mean big radiation? Is this a supposed event?

It is a blanket term for a large number of evolutionary events. It is the same as "diversification" of something (lets say invertebrate multicellular organisms). In the Precambrian there were only a few sponges and other odd worm-like things. By the end of the Cambrian, most every class of invertebrates that ever has existed was found in the fossil record (class as in kingdom/phylum/class/order/family/genus/species), with the possible exception of some arthropod classes. So radiation is a major divergence from just a few sorts of critters into a large variety of them.

Where you do not say that fossils exist… then it is the basis human imagination?
Imagination would be the wrong word. Actually, if there were no fossils or fossil record at all, we would still have high confidence in the theory of evolution from the major lines of evidence that it is very successful in predicting, and which come in the areas of comparative anatomy, biogeography, and the all important genetic data. Fossilisation is a rare event. We know that we don't know what most of the creatures that have lived on the earth have looked like. When we do find transitional fossils, it helps us understand the details of how this character or that trait evolved, and it gives us more insight into how ancient creatures lived, but it isn't the prime evidence for evolution.

On the other hand, if the fossil record was all we had to go on, and the other lines of evidence didn't exist, scientists wouldn't be unanimously accepting the Modern Synthesis of evolution - if they accepted any evolutionary theory at all. I point this out to try to show you the relative importance of the fossil record in our understanding of evolution. The transitions and trends we find in the fossil record are just the "icing on the cake" for evolution. (later you might be interested in seeing a review of some of the most important evidence here: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/ )
The evidence from the other areas is strong and conclusive, and the transitional fossils we have agree. So, the only thing left to the human imagination is what the transitional forms that didn't fossilize looked like.. When new transitionals are found the hypotheses of scientists about what those forms looked like get a chance to be tested.

How do these changes occur?
Very simply put, through descent with modification.
A better answer is a list of mechanisms that cause evolution:
Genetic mutation ("random" changes in the DNA of an individual, which may be expressed in traits that reduce the individual's chance of reproducing, increase the individual's chance of reproducing, or do neither. They are essentially random in nature, because we cannot predict what mutation will happen next. A better word is chaotic. A thunderstorm isn't a random event - it has definite causes, but it is chaotic - when one will occur looks random to us.)
Lateral gene transfer (transfer of DNA directly from one organism to another. This normally happens only in single-celled organisms)
Recombination (exchange of DNA between individuals within a breeding population during sexual reproduction)
All of those act on individuals within a population. The next part of the list are mechanisms that act on the population at large, to change its overall genetic makeup:
Gene flow (individuals with different make-up moving into or out of a breeding population.)
Genetic drift (random change in "allele frequencey" - the number of one kind of gene in the population - owing to essentially random factors)
Any of a number of selective pressures (most importantly "natural selection" for reproductive fitness, changes in a population's over all genetic makeup due to differences in a gene's impact on the organism's ability to survive and reproduce).

That about sums them up.

How do these changes occur?
This is covered above...
What alters the DNA to produce these different species?
The same processes that change the genetics within a population or species are responsible for the separation into two species when two populations of the same species stop mating together for a long time for any reason.
When the animal becomes more complicated does not the DNA also become more complicated?
In general, the reverse is true. That is, when the gene sequences take on more variety (including more complexity), the organism that carries those genes is likely to become more complex.

How can evolution, on its own, add to the complexity of the creature?
Very small steps, very long periods of time. All of the same mechanisms I listed for you above. That is a "graduate student" level question, and beyond my powers to answer to your satisfaction. I must refer you to here:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/fitness/

So tell me their secret! How can I alone add to the complexity of my DNA?

Only through genetic engineering. That isn't a part of evolution (well, it isn't yet anyway). And genetic engineering isn't any match for 3 billion years of engineering by natural selection...
 
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Stormy

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So radiation is a major divergence from just a few sorts of critters into a large variety of them.

So we do not know that actual radiation occurred? If we do know then do we know the cause of this radiation? You say it is a blanket term. Is the word... radiation used in place of the correct name of God? Can we use radiation in our laboratory to alter goop into a fish?


Imagination would be the wrong word.

I will not question this point. I understand that the human mind would want to bridge gaps in knowledge. Much of what we have acquired factually originates in the imagination. I have always thought that children should be encourage to be more right-brain in their thinking.

Very simply put, through descent with modification.

But truthfully... can modifications add? Where does the additional genetic information come from that have never existed up into this point? We are not talking of cross breeding.

For example if an animal was able to developed the trait of invisibility. Where would he get the ability to change his DNA to allow this? I know this is far fetched, but not any more so then a lump of goop becoming a fish and onward into a human without any help from God. For If there was no where to gather the information to add to its DNA then it would seem to be just as impossible. No?

A better word is chaotic. A thunderstorm isn't a random event - it has definite causes, but it is chaotic - when one will occur looks random to us.)

This would have to be wrong. Our world is orderly… not chaotic. Is this similar to the radiation that you do not have a name for. I will tell you ... it is God.

Lateral gene transfer (transfer of DNA directly from one organism to another. This normally happens only in single-celled organisms)

Transfer is not the answer. I cannot give that which I have not first received.

Recombination (exchange of DNA between individuals within a breeding population during sexual reproduction)
All of those act on individuals within a population. The next part of the list are mechanisms that act on the population at large, to change its overall genetic makeup:
Gene flow (individuals with different make-up moving into or out of a breeding population.)
Genetic drift (random change in "allele frequencey" - the number of one kind of gene in the population - owing to essentially random factors)
Any of a number of selective pressures (most importantly "natural selection" for reproductive fitness, changes in a population's over all genetic makeup due to differences in a gene's impact on the organism's ability to survive and reproduce).

Again all this summing up leaves me blank. Gene flow, genetic drift, random selection, nothing adds and ingredient that was not there before.

In general, the reverse is true. That is, when the gene sequences take on more variety (including more complexity), the organism that carries those genes is likely to become more complex.

Reverse it but it does not change the equation.

You are saying ... 2= 1+1

I am saying... 1+1=2

But my question is where did you find your other one to add upon the original? Mine came from God.

Very small steps, very long periods of time. All of the same mechanisms I listed for you above. That is a "graduate student" level question, and beyond my powers to answer to your satisfaction. I must refer you to here:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/fitness/

I will check out this site again. But I have not found it to be a true search for truth.

Only through genetic engineering. That isn't a part of evolution (well, it isn't yet anyway). And genetic engineering isn't any match for 3 billion years of engineering by natural selection...

Can genetic engineering add a trait that here to for has never existed in the natural world? If no... Then neither can natural selection. For natural selection to work the selection must be available.

Evolution without God does not stand up to reason.
 
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Stormy

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Jerry: I know I am a pain. Take a couple aspirins and help me figure this out. :D I cannot understand how something of such a simple nature is not seen by those who work demands that they know the complications of creation. Do you think maybe they have become lost in the forrest and can not see the light to find their way out?
 
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Stormy,

I understand your questions. Please be patient with me. To answer them in the detail they deserve will take some time and concentration from me... Not something I will be able to give it while I am at work, which is where I am going now. I stay on-line at work, but I can't put the kind of time and concentration into an answer while I am there that I can do while I am at home. I hope you won't mind waiting until this evening. I will come back to this thread then, and do my best to give you the best explanation I can for all of your questions.

Until then,
Jerry
 
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