Darwin's Evolution?

[Stormy]

I knew you would not understand me.

I will try again.

Please bear in mind that I am not promoting my religion. I am just trying to understand logically the subject of evolution.


OK I know that the mature creatures are still changing. But I, and I would think no one else; ever expect to see a totally new creature. One that is not in any of our basic groups.... fish, bird, reptile, and mammal. We will never have another major animal group.

In this sense evolution has stopped. Why?

...........................................................

But even more… I do not see the evolution working as it did at the beginning of time. The only way we can get another human now is if a human gives birth. There are no creatures to be found working their way up our evolutionary ladder.

In this sense too, evolution has stopped. Why?

Do you understand what I am asking Jerry?

 

[Jerry Smith]

Storm,

evolution of large new traits does not occur over a life-time, and it is somewhat rare that evolution converges on the same solution twice for any given "problem". When it does, the solutions still look different because evolution is working with a different set of structures each time (see bat vs bird wings and flight)...

To think evolution is stopped because you don't see it happening before your eyes is almost like thinking the clock has stopped because you check it in intervals of less than a second and you want to see it get from midnight to 11:59 a.m.

 

[Stormy]

Jerry: If you are saying that evolution is still at work like it has been since the beginning of time. I will have to disagree. Is that what you are saying?

 

[Jerry Smith]

I grant you the possibility that it has slowed down. Think of the grocery store when they start the day with 12 cashiers on duty. It isn't hard to get to the "front of the line" at that point. But when the busy time approaches, the registers get full, and people start putting their purchases back and going home.

Something like that can be the case when the environmental niches get full.

Still evolution occurs now, just like it has done all along. Even within our lifetimes we see it: the peppered moths of Kettlewell evolved, new species of many different organisms are observed to evolve during very brief periods of time. Consider the change from the common ancestor of chimps and humans took nearly eight million years.

One other (brief) point: evolution isn't a ladder. It is more of a scaffolding. Each step is built on the last, and the step before doesn't always stay around.. Many times the lineage pulls the scaffold up behind it... Evolution isn't a Pine tree, it is a hawthorne bush... The lines of descent have to be traced from the tip of the branch backwards. The root doesn't inexorably lead to any particular branch - it just keeps growing branches, limbs, and twigs.

 

[Stormy]

I grant you the possibility that it has slowed down. Think of the grocery store when they start the day with 12 cashiers on duty. It isn't hard to get to the "front of the line" at that point. But when the busy time approaches, the registers get full, and people start putting their purchases back and going home.

Something like that can be the case when the environmental niches get full.

You are speaking of evolution as if there were an Intelligence to it. You can not use my reasoning. You will have to come up with your own. Unless that is... you are beginning to agree with me.

If not; do not talk about evolution as being able to reason and think.

Try again.

 

[seebs]

It is often easiest for us to describe processes in anthropomorphic terms, even when these terms are partially inaccurate.

I wouldn't expect to see a "new kingdom" for a long time, but on the other hand, we only get one, what, every ~50 million years or more?

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Lets see if I can help a little here Stormy...

From what I have seen in looking at the history of evolution we are unlikely to see another major branch start up because the other branches are currently too good at what they do and to populus to allow the room needed for another large branch.

Evolution seems to slow when the environment is stable and there are few open niches to fill. Take for example the mammals and dinosaurs...

Both started evolving from their base roots at about the same time, just after a mass extinction. For some reason, unknown as far as I know, the dinosaurs had a slight jump on repopulation. Dinosaurs got big and mammals stayed small but both still slowly changed each speacalising more and more but staying relativly in their niches. Now allong comes a big rock and a few other things and we have another mass extinction.

The world recovers and there are large gaps in the order of things and suddenly evolution kicks back into high gear to fill those gaps. For a short time birds, not mammals rule. They get big quick and sit on top. Mammals get a little bigger but not terrably large and things settle down and evolution slows again. Then something happens and the forests start to give way to open plains, a small extinction occurs at the same time and evolution ramps up again. Birds loose their pirch to mammals and they finaly get their turn at bat. Now several small emergencies and minor extinctions later the mammals have yet to give up that top spot.

Finnaly humans arive on the scene, an animal that has gained the power to change its environment instead of changing it's self. Now for us evolution has slowed even further since we can now adapt the world to suit us rather than having to cange to suit the world. To even further slow evolution is us we come up with modern medicine. Now even less of the week and sickley die (I am not saying this is a bad thing) and lately even sterility is being sidesteped. We are quickly reaching the point where the next big jump in our own evolution will be at our own hands.

But this all could change in a second... Say another big rock hits and kills off all life on land. Evolution might just come up with vastly different solutions next time.

Major changes are often only seen when there are many areas to be exploited by life, currently it seems that humans are hogging more and more of the nieches and not allowing anything to take the place of things we drive into or near extinction. The next major spurt may not come unless we change the way we live with nature or we are somehow removed. Either of which will probably not take place in our life times.

 

[Cantuar]

Can you tell me what stopped evolution?

Nothing stopped it; it's still going on. That's why we're seeing new strains of bacterial and viral pathogens. Evolution is simply a function of selection among individuals in a population by reproduction of individuals most suited to the environment. When the environment doesn't change, the most suitable individuals are the same as in previous generations. When the environment changes a lot, the most suitable individuals are different from previous generations.

Global warming is going to be a driver of evolutionary change - we're already seeing some examples of extinctions as a result of global warming, and that will leave environmental niches. And if that asteroid does hit Earth, there's going to be some interesting evolutionary consequences.

 

[TDickensheets]

You must believe is something. You believe in the sky & the ground exist. You not believe in a personal God exist. Why brother believe these things exist. Without the Creator. Then who created us?

Rom 2:22-25
Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by TDickensheets
You must believe is something. You believe in the sky & the ground exist. You not believe in a personal God exist. Why brother believe these things exist. Without the Creator. Then who created us?

This is not actually an argument, or anything. BTW, your quote from Romans refers to pagans, not atheists.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

TDickensheets? Who was that blast aimed at?

 

[Cantuar]

Atheists, I assume. Well-known fact that Christians don't believe in evolution, so evolution = atheism. Or something.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by seebs
BTW, your quote from Romans refers to pagans, not atheists.

And you know this, how?

 

[blader]

Originally posted by Cantuar
Atheists, I assume. Well-known fact that Christians don't believe in evolution, so evolution = atheism. Or something.

"Well-know fact" among whom? Christians who don't believe in evolution? =P

76.5% of all Americans are "Christian."
Source: ARIS 2001

87% of all Americans believe in evolution.
Source: Barna Research Ministries, 2000

 

[Stormy]

Humans that do not believe in God will forever search. They try to understand the universe and its creation but that is an impossibility. So instead of admitting their lack of knowledge, they instead are prone to overcompensate with pride and assumptions of fact.

The dinosaurs were killed by an asteroid has been written as a fact upon this thread.

The theory of evolution is a fact. This was also said.

And on, and on... And on! There is no way that any of this can be called fact! It is theory and is based upon Faith in Man.

A Christian starts with God from the beginning, and calmly walks forward through time and evolution. Until the point, man meets his maker and becomes his children. God then bestows all the treasures of this world upon those that he loves. He gives to us dominance over every living creature. All he wants in return is love, not only for himself, but also... for all those that live.

An atheist must instead walk backwards. He is forever searching and looking with his eyes wide open but avoiding the real light of truth. Along his path are many obstacles that he must overcome to continue. The links are missing that he needs to smooth is path. Questions are left unanswered and many holes are in his theories. But still, by his own determination he dodges the pitfalls and walks on. But to what?

For when he comes to the end, he is left with nothing.

For cause is needed!

You can have as many theories as you like. But they all fall far short of fact, if you cannot show cause. Everything must be set into motion. Nothing exists that was not started. Everything that was started has a force behind it that initiated the action.

So for an Atheist to say there is no God, that in itself, turns his basis for fact into... human dribble.

When will they allow into their life the light of truth and see...

God as First Cause becomes that entity which designed and set in motion all things in their quest to become.


This is not merely my opinion.

 

[LiveFreeOrDie]

Originally posted by Stormy
Humans that do not believe in God will forever search.

Yep. That's part of what makes life interesting.

They try to understand the universe and its creation but that is an impossibility.

Sad but true.

So instead of admitting their lack of knowledge, they instead are prone to overcomplicating with pride and assumptions of fact.

Whoa - hold on a minute! Who again is guilty of "pride and assumptions of fact"? Seems to me that whole belief in God thing is an "assumption of fact" and I've met more than a fair share of Christians whose attitude ("I'm one of the chosen ones!") was darn prideful.

The dinosaurs were killed by an asteroid has been written as a fact upon this thread.

Got a better explanation?

The theory of evolution is a fact. This was also said.

Got a better explanation?

And on and on And on. There is no way that any of this can be called fact. It is theory and is based upon Faith in Man.

No, it is theory based on evidence.

A Christian starts with God from the beginning and calmly walks forward through time and evolution. Until the point, man meets his maker and becomes his children. God then bestows all the treasures of this world upon those that he loves. He gives to us dominance over every living creature. All he wants in return is love, not only for him... but also for all those that live.

Bully for you.

An atheist must instead walk backwards. He is forever searching and looking with his eyes wide open but avoiding the real light of truth. Along his path are many obstacles that he must overcome to continue. The links are missing that he needs to smooth is path. Questions are left unanswered and many holes are in his theories. But still, by his own determination he dodges the pitfalls and walks on. But to what?

I don't know. I honestly admit that. Now, if you have some evidence that will illuminate "the real light of truth", then let's have it out, eh?

For when he comes to the end he is left with nothing. For cause is needed! You can have as many theories as you like; but they all fall, far short of fact, if you cannot show cause. Everything must be set into motion. Nothing exists that was not started. Everything that was started has a force behind it that initiated the action.

If everything has a cause, then what caused God?

So for an Atheist to say there is no God, that in itself, turns his basis for fact into human dribble.

I don't follow.

This is not merely my opinion.

True. You are not the only one who has espoused this opinion. But that's all it is - an opinion.

 

[Stormy]

LiveFreeOrDie : Show me cause.

 

[LiveFreeOrDie]

I don't know that there is any.

 

[foolsparade]

stormy,you should try to keep an opened mind.like someone else mentioned earlier,you seemed to have already made up your mind.I still do not understand why you people want to connect atheism with science and evolution.You remind me of the people in he movie "Pleasantville" that refused to be open to new ideas and experiences and so they stayed Black and white,while the others started to turn into color.its only been 97 years since Einstein introduced his theory of relativity,made you should have more faith in us fellow humans for a change.?

 

[Underdog]

Originally posted by Stormy
I have an open mind. I do not search for facts to prove what I believe, rather I search for facts in general. Knowing that what I find that is true, and not imaginary, will support my beliefs.

I do not see evolution as the gradual change as expressed by Darwin. I instead see the Earth as a creation of God. I believe that evolution was the way God started life upon Earth. But I also think that God played an active part. I believe there were periods where evolution was given a boost.

Show me that I am wrong. Show me even one direct line of evolution. Do we have fossils of any of these in between creatures? Why are the missing links not readily available?

Please do not take my question as an attack upon your beliefs.

I couldn't agree more. Keep up the good work, Stormy.