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DogmaHunter

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Nice post.

Am I the only that finds it odd that so many creationists present themselves as having some sort of special insight into biology despite knowing next to nothing about it? IT guys, engineers, and computer science types are the worst.


I know, right....
What bothers me most, as an software engineer myself, is that it guys and engineers should be the FIRST to understand that "nested hierarchies" is NOT how you design productlines.

ESPECIALLY programmers should understand this.
Programmers (worth their salt) are typically completely allergic to things like unnecessary redundancy, "dead code" (= code that is embedded in the solution, but which can't be reached in any way and thus just sits there), duplicate code, etc etc.

In biology, we find the equivalent of things like the code for Grand Theft Auto having dead code modules to merge MS Word files with MS Excel data tables.

Or literally designing a hand camera where all the wires are in front of the lens, creating a blind spot and then writing additional battery-consuming code to "rectify" the image through software.

It makes no sense at all, from an engineering perspective especially.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Bottom line, science has its place. Courts have their case.

I used to use this analogy 40 years ago
Thousands of years from now, archaeologists dig up the remains of a lost civilization in the Seattle area. They find my home, the Seattle bus schedule, and my employment records. They discover that I went to work every day at a certain time and came home at a certain time.

After putting the pieces together, they are very excited to proclaim that I was a COBOL porgrammer in Seattle and took the bus every day from my home in Newcastle.

Except I drove. And if they had continued digging and discovering information, they would have figured that out. And they would have found out that I owned a Subaru DL and would have said, We were wrong. He didn't take the bus. He drove a Subaru DL.

Except I drove an Opel GT. And it's possible that if they kept digging they would have found out that information too.

That's the point here. Are we at the "he took the bus" phase, or the Subaru phase, or the Opel GT phase? Or something else entirely.
Difficult to say at what "phase" we are at, but note that at each successive phase, the information about you became more accurate. At what "phase" would the theory of evolution have to be in order for it to be so off that creationism was a more accurate representation of reality?

This is a very simple scenario. Much simpler than even the simplest single cell life form, and it is possible to make all sorts of hypotheses that make sense and have "evidence" to prove that they are possible. But the only way to know you are correct is to hop into your DeLorean and see for yourself.
Not entirely, even by your own example. So, let's say all traces of you owning a car were destroyed over time, so that the future people studying your life would never know about it, and would inevitably conclude (incorrectly) that you took the bus to work. That doesn't make the rest of what they found about your life incorrect, now does it?

So, let's extend this to evolution, shall we? Now, sure, there are a lot of organisms which never fossilized, but there are plenty more that are. So, while some organisms have barely any fossil ancestors to speak of, there are others that, by virtue of luck and living in an area in which fossils formed relatively easily, have tons. Our species is an example of that, you could make a flip book out of our ancestors. A similar thing applies to horses and whales. Are we to assume that only these organisms evolved and no other, just because not every modern organism has an extremely complete ancestor fossil record to go with it?

This gets to the core of my issues with "science" regarding the Evolution stuff. It's fine to say, 'we believe he may have taken the bus and evidence shows that is possible. It is stupid to say, "our extensive experimentation on all information we have from that time prove he took the bus.
No duh, and you'll notice that most behavior related stuff for extinct fossil organisms is rather speculative (aside from what they ate, which is sometimes fossilized into their stomachs and can be partially inferred by teeth). But you know what wouldn't be speculative? Your gender, since humans have different bone structures between them. Nor would it be pure speculation about where your muscles attached, because bones have protrusions and other structures where muscles attach to them as a result of the strain.

They're trying to find themselves an audience. Their deductions need applause. - Peter Gabriel from the album The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway
-_- dude, I couldn't even tell you the name of the most recently discovered fossil considered relevant to human evolution. People always try to claim that evolution is a bunch of propaganda, but you actually have to do research to learn anything about it. I don't casually pass by people handing out evolution pamphlets or people speaking in the streets about it. I see plenty of it for religions, though.
 
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Almost there

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Difficult to say at what "phase" we are at, but note that at each successive phase, the information about you became more accurate. At what "phase" would the theory of evolution have to be in order for it to be so off that creationism was a more accurate representation of reality?
I've said before that I have no problem with the work o evolutionists and find quite fascinating the raw discoveries made. I don't even have a problem with them speculating about what this may mean about what happened millions and billions of years ago. It is when they state it as fact and/or say the ID answer is wrong and/or stupid that I chuckle to myself.
Not entirely, even by your own example. So, let's say all traces of you owning a car were destroyed over time, so that the future people studying your life would never know about it, and would inevitably conclude (incorrectly) that you took the bus to work. That doesn't make the rest of what they found about your life incorrect, now does it?
Absolutely not! And I commend them for their discoveries. But as I said above, that is not really the point. Just as a person saying John 3:16 says, literally, what it says is wonderful. It's when they alter the meaning of the word "perish" to really mean "eternal life, but in severe discomfort", that I question their reasoning and logic capabilities.

The discoveries stand on their own. It's the interpretations that sometimes appear to be made of wet cardboard.

IOW: Facts are facts. Deductions are not facts.
 
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Almost there

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Speedwell

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It is when they state it as fact and/or say the ID answer is wrong and/or stupid that I chuckle to myself.
ID as presently conceived is indeed wrong and stupid. That doesn't mean that there is no input of any kind by an "intelligent designer," just that ID as presently conceived is wrong and stupid. I chuckle to myself when I hear creationists whine that rejecting ID is the same as rejecting God's involvement in His creation.

Beside the fact that it is bad science, The difficulty I have with ID is that I have a hard time accepting that God would create a system capable of producing almost all biological structures except for a few obscure ones which He has to tinker with personally. Creationists sometimes complain that evolutionists deny God's power to create in seven days. I complain that creationists deny God's power to create a process of evolution which works properly.
 
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tas8831

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I know, right....
What bothers me most, as an software engineer myself, is that it guys and engineers should be the FIRST to understand that "nested hierarchies" is NOT how you design productlines.

ESPECIALLY programmers should understand this.

As an aside, I should point out that while it is true that creationists with science backgrounds/science-based professions are more likely to be engineers of some sort (the Salem hypopthesis), it is also true (at least in my experience) that engineers who take the time to actually study evolution are among the most eloquent writers/important researchers in evolution's 'defense.'

Electrical engineer Robert Flake, for example, paired up with a botanist in the 1970s to do a series of experiments basically nullifying the so-called 'Haldane's dilemma.'
 
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