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Darwinian evolution - still a theory in crisis.

Jerry N.

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The other question I have is how is the genome used to support macroevolution? It seems to me that it is no different from saying that all vertebrate animals come from a common ancestor, because they share the characteristics of four limbs and a spine. Only the genome is microscopic. What am I missing?
 
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The Barbarian

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No, thanks.

I experienced it firsthand in my own family.

Dad converts ... daughter swears he didn't.
You're free to kid yourself. But as you just learned, you were told a fairy tale.
 
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The Barbarian

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I remember reading about it. It is interesting, and I wouldn’t mind your take on it. Some months ago, I pointed out on another thread that it was Julian Huxley, H. G. Wells and a few others who weaponized evolution against the church. I got hammered for that and was accused of being a troll. I wouldn’t mind your take on that too.
I think a lot of misguided people have tried to use science to disparage Christian faith. But I notice that Christian Churches are generally open to things like evolution. So Huxley and Wells might be on target with a few sects that reject science, but for most of us, it's just funny.
 
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I remember reading about it.

Darwin was baptized when he was 9 months old.

And that's the thing about infant baptism.

Your parents have you baptized, then you live your life believing you are what they train you up to be.

In addition, the academic community looks at your baptism and assumes you to be just that.

Afterwards, when the child grows older and no longer embraces his particular religion, he will break away.

And if he keeps his abandonment to himself, he can end up on Wikipedia under false pretenses.

My wife got saved at the age of 26 and renounced her Catholic beliefs.

But her mother claimed she was still a Catholic and will die a Catholic.

Her sister, also a Catholic, got a divorce after having two children.

A few years later she married another man.

When he went to adopt them, to their horror, they learned the Catholic church didn't recognize her divorce.

$250.00 got her a Declaration of Nullity.
 
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You're free to kid yourself. But as you just learned, you were told a fairy tale.

In academia, everything's a fairy tale until proven otherwise by a court of evidence.
 
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sfs

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The other question I have is how is the genome used to support macroevolution? It seems to me that it is no different from saying that all vertebrate animals come from a common ancestor, because they share the characteristics of four limbs and a spine. Only the genome is microscopic. What am I missing?
Comparative genomics supports macroevolution in all sorts of ways. For one, species on particular branches of life share not only functional elements (which could be explained by a common designer, just as a shared spine could be), but nonfunctional ones as well. For example, all apes and monkeys share an inability to make their own vitamin C because they lack a functioning version of a particular gene. The gene is still there in all of their genomes, in recognizably the same place, but it's badly broken, and often broken in the same ways. Some other species (e.g. guinea pigs) have also lost functional versions of the same gene, but they're broken in different ways. This makes sense assuming common descent is correct: the primate share the broken gene because they've all inherited it from a common ancestor in which it first broke.

There are hundreds of thousands of other examples -- other broken genes, nonfunctioning, malformed copies of working genes, retroviruses that have inserted themselves into genomes, other transposable elements that have done the same -- all consistently reproducing an almost identical tree-like structure of shared features.

And then there are other indications of common descent that rely not on similarities but on differences. I've explained one of these at length here: Testing Common Ancestry: It’s All About the Mutations - Article - BioLogos
 
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I think a lot of misguided people have tried to use science to disparage Christian faith.

You mean like testing a wafer before and after it has been blessed and reporting that its DNA is still the same?
 
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Jerry N.

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Comparative genomics supports macroevolution in all sorts of ways. For one, species on particular branches of life share not only functional elements (which could be explained by a common designer, just as a shared spine could be), but nonfunctional ones as well. For example, all apes and monkeys share an inability to make their own vitamin C because they lack a functioning version of a particular gene. The gene is still there in all of their genomes, in recognizably the same place, but it's badly broken, and often broken in the same ways. Some other species (e.g. guinea pigs) have also lost functional versions of the same gene, but they're broken in different ways. This makes sense assuming common descent is correct: the primate share the broken gene because they've all inherited it from a common ancestor in which it first broke.

There are hundreds of thousands of other examples -- other broken genes, nonfunctioning, malformed copies of working genes, retroviruses that have inserted themselves into genomes, other transposable elements that have done the same -- all consistently reproducing an almost identical tree-like structure of shared features.

And then there are other indications of common descent that rely not on similarities but on differences. I've explained one of these at length here: Testing Common Ancestry: It’s All About the Mutations - Article - BioLogos
Thank you very much. It will take a while for me to digest the article.
 
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The Barbarian

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You mean like testing a wafer before and after it has been blessed and reporting that its DNA is still the same?
Hitler actually tried that. He had the Gestapo rush in and grab some hosts at consecration. Then they analyzed it. Still bread and wine. Because he never figured out what transubstantiation actually means.

Do you really think that the Apostles were drinking materially human blood and eating materially human flesh at the Last Supper?
 
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I think a lot of misguided people have tried to use science to disparage Christian faith.

You mean like testing a wafer before and after it has been blessed and reporting that its DNA is still the same?

Hitler actually tried that. He had the Gestapo rush in and grab some hosts at consecration. Then they analyzed it. Still bread and wine. Because he never figured out what transubstantiation actually means.

Looks like scientists didn't learn from Hitler, doesn't it?

Or are they going to test these wafers each generation to keep Catholics disparaged?
 
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The Barbarian

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Looks like scientists didn't learn from Hitler, doesn't it?
Scientists would have told him that science cannot consider the miraculous. YECs and Hitler never figured that out.

Or are they going to test these wafers each generation to keep Catholics disparaged?
Nope. For reasons that seem to be difficult for some to understand. As you probably know, most Christians accept Jesus' words and the miracle of transubstantiation.
 
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Jerry N.

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Comparative genomics supports macroevolution in all sorts of ways. For one, species on particular branches of life share not only functional elements (which could be explained by a common designer, just as a shared spine could be), but nonfunctional ones as well. For example, all apes and monkeys share an inability to make their own vitamin C because they lack a functioning version of a particular gene. The gene is still there in all of their genomes, in recognizably the same place, but it's badly broken, and often broken in the same ways. Some other species (e.g. guinea pigs) have also lost functional versions of the same gene, but they're broken in different ways. This makes sense assuming common descent is correct: the primate share the broken gene because they've all inherited it from a common ancestor in which it first broke.

There are hundreds of thousands of other examples -- other broken genes, nonfunctioning, malformed copies of working genes, retroviruses that have inserted themselves into genomes, other transposable elements that have done the same -- all consistently reproducing an almost identical tree-like structure of shared features.

And then there are other indications of common descent that rely not on similarities but on differences. I've explained one of these at length here: Testing Common Ancestry: It’s All About the Mutations - Article - BioLogos
I read through your article. It is very well written and easy to understand. It explains what others were trying to say. The last line in your conclusion sums up my thoughts on the matter: “Of course, none of this says anything at all about God’s role in human origins, nor does it rule out miraculous intervention. But it does provide strong evidence that we share ancestry with other species.”
 
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Scientists would have told him that science cannot consider the miraculous.

So why didn't they?

Hitler had some top-notch scientists working for him.

YECs and Hitler never figured that out.

Because scientists kept it from him?

Nope. For reasons that seem to be difficult for some to understand. As you probably know, most Christians accept Jesus' words and the miracle of transubstantiation.

Let me get this straight.

Scientists tested the wafers back in the 1940s and determined NO CHANGE.

Catholics didn't care, as NO CHANGE is not part of their beliefs about the Eucharist.

It should have been CASE CLOSED at this point, right?

Yet ... as late as 2014 ...

Scientists last tested a Eucharistic wafer for DNA in 2014, as part of a study comparing genetic material to known samples. The study included consecrated hosts stolen from churches in the US and Canada. According to Church Life Journal, this testing was part of a PCR (Polymerase Chain Reaction) DNA amplification, a standard laboratory procedure.

What am I missing here?
 
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FaithT

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In academia, everything's a fairy tale until proven otherwise by a court of evidence.
I think all the evidence is there for evolution.
 
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I think all the evidence is there for evolution.

There's some "missing links" that haven't answered their summons yet.

"Police" are out looking for them now.
 
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The Barbarian

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Scientists would have told him that science cannot consider the miraculous.

So why didn't they?
He didn't ask.

Hitler had some top-notch scientists working for him.
Not too many working on transubstantiation, though. Supposedly, one of the Nuremberg defendants was a Biblical scholar, but he was doing other tasks for Adolf.

YECs and Hitler never figured that out.

Because scientists kept it from him?
Because he was kinda annoyed that they showed how eugenics was scientifically unsupportable. Hitler preferred the racial theories of ICR co-founder William Tinkle.

Let me get this straight.

Scientists tested the wafers back in the 1940s and determined NO CHANGE.
Lab technicians, anyway. SS employees. Like Hitler, they were materialists. so transubstantiation was a complete mystery to them.

Catholics didn't care, as NO CHANGE is not part of their beliefs about the Eucharist.
Other than the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. That was concerning.

What am I missing here?
God's ongoing presence in our midst.
 
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The Barbarian

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There's some "missing links" that haven't answered their summons yet.

"Police" are out looking for them now.
Here it is:
Missing Lynx Found:

We still find important new fossil transitionals on a monthly basis. But as YEC Dr. Kurt Wise found decades ago, the large number of transitional series in the fossil record is "very good evidence for macroevolutionary theory."

And he actually know what he's talking about.
 
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Hvizsgyak

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Thing is Enil wanted all the humans dead. Which would mean you were never born but Enki told Ziusudra (the inspiration for Noah) how to build a boat to save his family (just like Noah).

Doesn't sound very Satany......
I won't argue with you on that point based on the Sumerian religious views. I still favor Enlil because he wanted to destroy the humans because they were too loud :oldthumbsup:.
 
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The Barbarian

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The other question I have is how is the genome used to support macroevolution?
What we see happening in observed cases of macroevolution is that the genome usually doesn't change that much. Reproductive isolation can come about with relatively few mutations. However, common descent gets a huge boost from genetics, because the "tree of life" first noticed by Linnaeus very nicely fits phylogenies based on DNA.

There are exceptions. Polyplody (duplication of the entire genome) is pretty rare in animals but is a fairly frequent cause of macroevolution in plants.
It seems to me that it is no different from saying that all vertebrate animals come from a common ancestor, because they share the characteristics of four limbs and a spine. Only the genome is microscopic. What am I missing?
Well, homologies are very good evidence for macroevolution as YEC Dr. Kurt Wise says. But genetic data is also powerful evidence for evolution.

1755635618892.png

Notice that DNA evidence shows that coelacanths (lobed fin fish) are more closely related to tetrapods than they are to other fish, which is what the fossil record also indicates.
 
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