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Darwin Doubted
- Thread starter TruthTeller2005
- Start date
corvus_corax
Naclist Hierophant and Prophet
Im confused a bit here tooAvtoritet said:That is why you saw
get a clue that means im confused
Specifically regarding your question
What about java man? What are you asking here? What do you want to know?
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Avtoritet said:That is why you saw
get a clue that means im confused
Sorry, I'm fresh out of clues. They left along with my patience for silly YEC hit and run posts.
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Because evilutionists haven't found anything like hundreds of fossils, and being as they're a cult that desperately worships anonymity have no desire for attention, fame, and scientific recognition. Therefore it is obvious that they desperately need to fabricate evidence, and one unlucky soul was selected to recieve no attention or fame for this discovery of the foundational aspect of evilutionary evidence.Avtoritet said:
FOrtunately noble creationists masquerading as evilutionary biologists uncovered this fakery.
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Karl - Liberal Backslider
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When Lyell and Darwin got their degrees, universities didn't do degrees in science.
And you have evidence that Java man was faked?
And you have evidence that Java man was faked?
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Despite the fact that I am reading Origin of the Species right now, and on I do not find that quote in the book, and the fact that Darwin's "doubt" was nothing more than stating his theory was currently not fact, but had much more evidence than Creationism and was therefore a more viable theory, AND the fact that Darwin never recanted on his deathbed, allow me assume what you say is true. So what? Does that mean evolution is wrong?
NO.
NO.
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Avtoritet said:
This is what happens when you don't read sticky threads like The Quiet Thread. You look silly.
Here's the Java Man skull compared with the Turkana Boy skull.
Looks pretty legitimate to me.
If you're having trouble fully visualizing TB's skull... it's what I'm using for my avatar.
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Late_Cretaceous
<font color="#880000" ></font&g
A good scientist always doubts his own theories. A good scientist should harbor doubt for any theory. Thats what compells people to test theories, and by testing theories they are either discarded or made stronger. Thats how science works
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TruthTeller2005 said:
Of course you're implying theory means its uncertain. Wrong. Perhaps if you picked up even a high-school level biology book you could educate yourself on this subject without looking so foolish.
Nonsense of course. Not surprised, these ignorant rants happen about once a week, this one was overdue.
Clearly those artists are apart of the evolution conspiracy, right? I suggest in the future to spare yourself future embarassment you at least research the topic you attempt to dishonestly attack. Thanks
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Oncedeceived
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Okay, there was controversy with the Java man fossils and why you are all acting like there hasn't been I don't understand.
Eugène Dubois
Photograph Illustration Eugène Dubois came into the world at an appropriate time, given the mission he chose in life. He was born in 1858, in between the discovery of the first recognized Neanderthal fossil and Darwin's publication of On the Origin of Species. Dubois vowed to prove Darwin right by finding "the missing link" between apes and humans. In 1892, he succeeded, yet the years before and the decades after were anything but easy.
His first paper discussed the structure of the larynx and suggested that the mammalian larynx evolved from gill cartilage of fishes. Shortly afterwards, Dubois turned his attention away from voice boxes and toward early humans, convinced that fossils would provide the best evidence of evolution. He concluded that he would have a good chance of finding transitional fossils in the Dutch East Indies, and set sail with his new family. Most people thought the Dutchman crazy, especially since the move entailed giving up a university position and assuming duties as a military doctor in a disease-ridden climate.
Dubois started fossil hunting in Sumatra, but later moved to Java where he had better luck. After five years, he had evidence he considered sufficient to declare a new genus and species: Pithecanthropus erectus, or Java Man. The evidence consisted of a skullcap, from which he estimated a cranial capacity larger than an ape's but smaller than a human's; a tooth; and the left femur of an erect biped that had sustained, but recovered from, a serious leg injury.
Dubois paid a steep price for his find. He and his wife lost a child to tropical fever, and Dubois himself narrowly escaped death more than once, from malaria, tigers, and collapsing cave walls. Upon returning home, he took an unprestigious university appointment, and concluded that his greatest achievement would always be finding Java Man. So he was cruelly disappointed when, though some scientists greeted his finds enthusiastically, others dismissed them as ape remains, primitive human remains, or a jumble of fossils from separate individuals. (The last claim gained credence decades later when Dubois found an additional left femur in his collections, something he had overlooked. It contradicted his long-held belief that the fossils had certainly come from a single individual. In fact, some paleoanthropologists now suspect that the femur Dubois used to describe Java Man actually belonged to an anatomically modern human.) Even the scientists who supported his arguments left him suspicious; the anatomist Gustav Schwalbe used a cast of the skullcap to write an expanded monograph that dwarfed the paper by Dubois. Considering the effort he had expended to collect the fossils, he felt perhaps with justification that describing them was his exclusive right. Afterwards, the disillusioned Dubois periodically refused other scientists access to the fossils. A resulting (and inaccurate) rumor claimed Dubois was keeping the fossils hidden under pressure from the Catholic church.
His personal life offered him little solace. As a young man, he had been smitten by a very bright young woman, but when he learned she did not return his affections, he married a more vivacious if less clever girl. His wife took no interest in his work, and he eventually judged her shallow and unworthy. Not that Dubois was an ideal husband. On their return trip from Java to Europe, the ship was caught in such a violent storm that the captain ordered all the passengers into lifeboats. Dubois apparently informed his wife that, should something happen to their lifeboat, she would be responsible for saving their three children; he would be preoccupied with saving the Java Man fossils in the suitcase he'd strapped to his chest.
Despite flashes of productivity, Dubois descended into a bitter malaise in his later years. He rejected the implications of new finds in paleoanthropology, and he developed a reputation for using then discarding devoted assistants. Yet even though he was seldom personable, Dubois was brilliant. In addition to identifying Java Man, he deduced a predictable relationship between brain size and body size in different types of animals. This finding enjoyed little attention until decades after his death, becoming the forerunner of new research fields in biology.
I could have presented more but I felt this was less biased in account.
Eugène Dubois
Photograph Illustration Eugène Dubois came into the world at an appropriate time, given the mission he chose in life. He was born in 1858, in between the discovery of the first recognized Neanderthal fossil and Darwin's publication of On the Origin of Species. Dubois vowed to prove Darwin right by finding "the missing link" between apes and humans. In 1892, he succeeded, yet the years before and the decades after were anything but easy.
His first paper discussed the structure of the larynx and suggested that the mammalian larynx evolved from gill cartilage of fishes. Shortly afterwards, Dubois turned his attention away from voice boxes and toward early humans, convinced that fossils would provide the best evidence of evolution. He concluded that he would have a good chance of finding transitional fossils in the Dutch East Indies, and set sail with his new family. Most people thought the Dutchman crazy, especially since the move entailed giving up a university position and assuming duties as a military doctor in a disease-ridden climate.
Dubois started fossil hunting in Sumatra, but later moved to Java where he had better luck. After five years, he had evidence he considered sufficient to declare a new genus and species: Pithecanthropus erectus, or Java Man. The evidence consisted of a skullcap, from which he estimated a cranial capacity larger than an ape's but smaller than a human's; a tooth; and the left femur of an erect biped that had sustained, but recovered from, a serious leg injury.
Dubois paid a steep price for his find. He and his wife lost a child to tropical fever, and Dubois himself narrowly escaped death more than once, from malaria, tigers, and collapsing cave walls. Upon returning home, he took an unprestigious university appointment, and concluded that his greatest achievement would always be finding Java Man. So he was cruelly disappointed when, though some scientists greeted his finds enthusiastically, others dismissed them as ape remains, primitive human remains, or a jumble of fossils from separate individuals. (The last claim gained credence decades later when Dubois found an additional left femur in his collections, something he had overlooked. It contradicted his long-held belief that the fossils had certainly come from a single individual. In fact, some paleoanthropologists now suspect that the femur Dubois used to describe Java Man actually belonged to an anatomically modern human.) Even the scientists who supported his arguments left him suspicious; the anatomist Gustav Schwalbe used a cast of the skullcap to write an expanded monograph that dwarfed the paper by Dubois. Considering the effort he had expended to collect the fossils, he felt perhaps with justification that describing them was his exclusive right. Afterwards, the disillusioned Dubois periodically refused other scientists access to the fossils. A resulting (and inaccurate) rumor claimed Dubois was keeping the fossils hidden under pressure from the Catholic church.
His personal life offered him little solace. As a young man, he had been smitten by a very bright young woman, but when he learned she did not return his affections, he married a more vivacious if less clever girl. His wife took no interest in his work, and he eventually judged her shallow and unworthy. Not that Dubois was an ideal husband. On their return trip from Java to Europe, the ship was caught in such a violent storm that the captain ordered all the passengers into lifeboats. Dubois apparently informed his wife that, should something happen to their lifeboat, she would be responsible for saving their three children; he would be preoccupied with saving the Java Man fossils in the suitcase he'd strapped to his chest.
Despite flashes of productivity, Dubois descended into a bitter malaise in his later years. He rejected the implications of new finds in paleoanthropology, and he developed a reputation for using then discarding devoted assistants. Yet even though he was seldom personable, Dubois was brilliant. In addition to identifying Java Man, he deduced a predictable relationship between brain size and body size in different types of animals. This finding enjoyed little attention until decades after his death, becoming the forerunner of new research fields in biology.
I could have presented more but I felt this was less biased in account.
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Oncedeceived said:Thank you for the link, it helps support my point.
There is a difference between 'fake' which the poster was implying and 'controversy' which is something that comes up often in science and often leads to more research and is often resolved through peer review and additional insight and findings.
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Oncedeceived said:
You're mistaken. We're not acting like there was no controversy about Java man... we're acting like it was one that should never have occured - if other erectus/ergaster fossils had been found for comparison.
It's like Piltdown. You do know why the hoax was uncovered right? It was finally exposed because more and more legitimate finds were unearthed and they didn't match up with Eoanthropis Dawsoni.
Any questions about Java man should be answered when the skull cap is compared with Turkana Boy's as Jet Black did in the quiet thread (images taken from talk.origins). Java man was an erectus/ergaster - period.
I really have to smack my head at OD's lengthy and largly irrelvant citation about Dubois because we now have a full ergaster skull, with a clearly upright, nearly human body in Turkana boy and Java man's skull matches it perfectly. What does Dubois' life and how it panned out have to do with the obvious and clear morphological similarity of the two skulls? What does Dubois' being a less than perfect spouse/husband have to do with the Java man's skull and how much it matches other Homo ergaster skulls?
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Avtoritet
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by the way i am so sorry like i said my english is flawed. what i was asking is why some people only give the evidence of evolution the way it fits and sometimes even make up evidence(not java man piltdown man) to support their claim.
Havent you seen the bigger skulls that are not displayed anywhere.
Havent you seen the bigger skulls that are not displayed anywhere.
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Your English is quite good (except for a little capitals here and there).Avtoritet said:
I have not heard many people use faulty evidence (esp. on this board), because when evidence has shown to be falsified you should *stop using it*. This is unlike many creationist websites (like Hovind's double star argument, I mean, why does that man keep using that ?) who keep using the same lie over and over.
Give me one scientific journal, no wait, give me one thread on this board where an evolutionist uses piltdown as positive evidence for Evolution.
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