Daniel's "Time of the End" and the mathematical precision of prophecy

[MattHenry]

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm

The book of Daniel was sealed until the "time of the end":
Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
God followed this up with a crystal clear statement of fact:
Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

(link) In one of Daniel's dreams we read:

1. Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus, king of Persia, a word was revealed to Daniel, who was named Belteshazzar, and the word was true, and for a long time, and he understood the word and he understood it in the vision.
You can Yahoo confirmation of the first year of Cyrus to be 536 BC which makes the third year of Cyrus 533 BC.

Toward the end of this same prophecy we read (from the Tanach):
Daniel 12:7. And I heard the man clad in linen, who was above the waters of the river, and he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens, and he swore by the Life of the world, that in the time of [two] times and a half, and when they have ended shattering the strength of the holy people, all these will end.
Link to chabad.org (After all, what would Jews know about Hebrew idioms?

If a time is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a time:

2-1/2 "times" = 2500 years- 533 = 1967

The restoration of the Jews to, and end of the Gentile control of, the holy city, Jerusalem. End of the "shattering the strength of the holy people". Is this a one trick pony?

(link) In another of Daniel's dreams we find:

2.Daniel 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, [and] told the sum of the matters.
You can Yahoo confirmation for the first year of Belshazzar to be 552 BC

Later in this dream we read:
Daniel 7:25 And he will speak words against the Most High, and he will oppress the high holy ones, and he will think to change the times and the law, and they will be delivered into his hand until a time, two times, and half a time.

2500 - 552 = 1948

The restoration of the Jews to the holy land, declaring an independent Israel. End of the Jews being "led away captive", and being scattered among the "wilderness" of the nations.

For this to be a pair of accidents that each span 2500 years would be a stastical absurdity. Blessedly there are many more problems that reinforce them. For open eyes these problems aptly demonstrate that it wasn't until after the dates of 1948 and 1967 had come to pass, and we entered this - Daniel's - "time of the end", that we could understand the solutions to these simple problems both mathematically and textually. What a perfect seal God had Daniel put on this book!
These "times" problems are covered in more depth at this link.

More math problems here:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#revelation_1260_days

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Why people are hesitant is the changing of the Bible from "time, times and half a time" to "times and half a time." There's a Biblical warning against that. What people have to come to terms with is either their translation is wrong or yours is.

I think you have a fascinating study there but it's based on changing the currently accepted Biblical translations.

 

[Biblewriter]

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm

The book of Daniel was sealed until the "time of the end":
Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
God followed this up with a crystal clear statement of fact:
Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

(link) In one of Daniel's dreams we read:

1. Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus, king of Persia, a word was revealed to Daniel, who was named Belteshazzar, and the word was true, and for a long time, and he understood the word and he understood it in the vision.
You can Yahoo confirmation of the first year of Cyrus to be 536 BC which makes the third year of Cyrus 533 BC.

Toward the end of this same prophecy we read (from the Tanach):
Daniel 12:7. And I heard the man clad in linen, who was above the waters of the river, and he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens, and he swore by the Life of the world, that in the time of [two] times and a half, and when they have ended shattering the strength of the holy people, all these will end.
Link to chabad.org (After all, what would Jews know about Hebrew idioms?

If a time is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a time:

2-1/2 "times" = 2500 years- 533 = 1967

The restoration of the Jews to, and end of the Gentile control of, the holy city, Jerusalem. End of the "shattering the strength of the holy people". Is this a one trick pony?

(link) In another of Daniel's dreams we find:

2.Daniel 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, [and] told the sum of the matters.
You can Yahoo confirmation for the first year of Belshazzar to be 552 BC

Later in this dream we read:
Daniel 7:25 And he will speak words against the Most High, and he will oppress the high holy ones, and he will think to change the times and the law, and they will be delivered into his hand until a time, two times, and half a time.

2500 - 552 = 1948

The restoration of the Jews to the holy land, declaring an independent Israel. End of the Jews being "led away captive", and being scattered among the "wilderness" of the nations.

For this to be a pair of accidents that each span 2500 years would be a stastical absurdity. Blessedly there are many more problems that reinforce them. For open eyes these problems aptly demonstrate that it wasn't until after the dates of 1948 and 1967 had come to pass, and we entered this - Daniel's - "time of the end", that we could understand the solutions to these simple problems both mathematically and textually. What a perfect seal God had Daniel put on this book!
These "times" problems are covered in more depth at this link.

More math problems here:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#revelation_1260_days

This is great except for two little details. There is not the slightest iota of scriptural authority for assuming that a time equals a thousand years, and even if that were correct, a time, two times, and half a time would be three and a half thousand years, not two and a half thousand years.

This totally exposes the eschatological poverty of the system you are advancing.

 

[MattHenry]

This is great except for two little details. There is not the slightest iota of scriptural authority for assuming that a time equals a thousand years,

Let's look and see. While Daniel uses the term "time", the Old Testament never defines it. Could it possibly be defined in the New Testament?

Most Christians are familiar with the following verse as I am sure you are brother:

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The word that is generally translated as "day", in this verse, is "hemera". But that's not the only translation of this word. This ambiguous word is only translated by considering it's context.

From Strong's:

New Testament Greek Definition:
2250 hemera {hay-mer'-ah}
from (with 5610 implied) of a derivative of hemai (to sit,
akin to the base of 1476) meaning tame, i.e. gentle;
TDNT - 2:943,309; n f
AV - day 355, daily + 2596 15, time 3, not tr 2, misc 14; 389
http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

That shows us that it is a possibility, unlike your characterization, doesn't it?
Otherwise where else might we turn for our definition of a "time", besides pure presumption in forcing a doctrinal fit?

So let's just for a moment say "what if a 'time' were as a thousand years".

and even if that were correct, a time, two times, and half a time would be three and a half thousand years, not two and a half thousand years.

This totally exposes the eschatological poverty of the system you are advancing.

Through your doctrinal filter maybe. And you seem to be having the same trouble that Jen did.

The bible wasn't written in 15th century English. Nor was it written in the 20th century American English, of the "new age" influenced modern bible versions.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/new_age_bible_versions.htm

That portion of scripture that we are dealing with was written in Hebrew (the first major portion of Daniel was written in high Syriac). Now the Hebrew of 500 years BC was even a lot different than the Hebrew of a hundred years BC, for example.

Now I suppose we could say that the Jewish Hebrew scholars are a bunch of idiots and don't know a thing about Hebrew idioms, or we could recognize that many of them - both Messianic and non-Messianic - have a different understanding than our 20th century indoctrinated Christian might, or indeed Christians throughout the Christian era with deaf ears for the Jews.

So once again, let's just say, "What if the Jewish Hebrew scholars actually understand Hebrew idioms better than we might".

Well when we combine what we have collected so far, we find that these times problems could indeed indicate 2500 years, and when we try them out, we find the perfect mathematical hits of the original post.

Now if you are inclined to label all of the math problems I have presented in this forum as some sort of a massively multiple mathematical accident, or even just these two, I would encourage you to look at this site that calculates the mathematical probabilities of just the single problem of Daniel's 69 weeks coming even close.

"DANIEL'S MESSIAH IN THE CRITIC’S DEN".

"Section 4.3 - Summary - There are several reasonable interpretations of the Daniel 9:25 prophecy that are successful predictions for pointing to Jesus as the Messiah. Since it is not known whether the crucifixion of Jesus occurred in 30AD or 33 AD, in order to be conservative, the highest probability reported by Section 4.1 or 4.2 which is 0.0071 will be considered as the conservative estimate for the probability of the Daniel 9:25 prophecy occurring. Within these unknowns is the possibility that the prediction was essentially exact because one comparison matches to the day." - CRITIC’S DEN

I'd hate to loose this post so I will post it, and in the next post explore the verses textually.

 

[KerrMetric]

You can Yahoo confirmation of the first year of Cyrus to be 536 BC which makes the third year of Cyrus 533 BC.

Er......

if the 1st year is 536 BC then the 2nd year is 535 BC then the 3rd year is 534 BC.

Are you now going to go back and fiddle the numbers so that you can get the numbers you now require based upon your error above?

Is this hard to follow? What part of stupid nonsense do you not get? Stop pushing and believing hogwash.

 

[KerrMetric]

By the way - did you account for the fact there was no year 0?

 

[MattHenry]

Now let's take an example problem and consider it textually.

1. Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus, king of Persia, a word was revealed to Daniel, who was named Belteshazzar, and the word was true, and for a long time, and he understood the word and he understood it in the vision.
You can Yahoo confirmation of the first year of Cyrus to be 536 BC which makes the third year of Cyrus 533 BC.

The above are active links to Yahoo searches that include hundreds of cooberating sites. The beautiful thing is that not a single one of them is looking to make a mathematical fit (except my posts in other forums)

We see from the verse above that "the word was true, and for a long time", so we can expect this prophecy to span a long period of time. And indeed we both agree that this prophecy covered successive kingdoms that spanned hundreds of years. We also know that the Jews were scattered for about 2500 years.

Toward the end of this same prophecy we read (from the Tanach):
Daniel 12:7. And I heard the man clad in linen, who was above the waters of the river, and he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens, and he swore by the Life of the world, that in the time of [two] times and a half, and when they have ended shattering the strength of the holy people, all these will end.
Link to chabad.org (After all, what would Jews know about Hebrew idioms?

From the KJV:
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

Well there it is. "accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people"

So in both the Tanac and the KJV this is about an end to the scattering of the strength/power of the Jews. And it is a perfect mathematical fit.

2-1/2 "times" = 2500 years- 533 = 1967

In the other verse:
Daniel 7:25 And he will speak words against the Most High, and he will oppress the high holy ones, and he will think to change the times and the law, and they will be delivered into his hand until a time, two times, and half a time.

They were oppressed and in the hands of satan through the satanic kingdoms until 1948. First year of Belshazzar.

2500 - 552 = 1948

Now let's compare this to a three and a half year definition. Does 3-1/2 years really describe a "long time" in prophecy.

Particularly when it is a prophecy that Christians and Jews of all stripes recognize as being successive kingdoms that span hundreds of years? Does it measure the scattering of the Jews and pin their restoration with two parallel problems that span 2500 years? I'm glad I'm not stuck trying to defend Darby anymore.


"God is truth, so how well a person serves the Lord is not based on how good he is at defending his doctrine, but on how willing he is to seek out and follow the truth." - Ellis Skolfield.

 

[KerrMetric]

You can Yahoo confirmation of the first year of Cyrus to be 536 BC which makes the third year of Cyrus 533 BC.

Woo hoo - ERROR ALERT.

 

[MattHenry]

By the way - did you account for the fact there was no year 0?

That is a valid question.

When you look at the Yahoo search of the folks that pick the date (and to my knowledge, NONE of them are attempting to make this mathematical fit, so there won't be doctrine driven fudging) for the first year of Cyrus, you will often find 536-537 (making the third year 533-534). 534 would include the 0 issue.

But historians and scholars readily admit that our historical record BC has a fudge factor of 2-3 years, so that makes the issue pretty much irrelevant.

These problems being so close, I'll trust God's date, measured back from our knowns.

Could there be a better illustration that we are indeed in Daniel's "time of the end"?

 

[MattHenry]

Woo hoo - ERROR ALERT.

How so? (Nice post incidentally. Real Christian of you.)

 

[Zadok7000]

How so? (Nice post incidentally. Real Christian of you.)

He already told you how so in his first post. I already debunked this theory in another thread (albeit via another detail). Do you just plan on re-posting it in new threads forever?

 

[KerrMetric]

How so? (Nice post incidentally. Real Christian of you.)

How so???? I called it out on a prior post.

Real Christian of you to post nonsense I might add.

You said

You can Yahoo confirmation of the first year of Cyrus to be 536 BC which makes the third year of Cyrus 533 BC.

Can you count them off?

1st year - 536 BC
2nd year - 535 BC
3rd year - ??????

Hint - it's not 533 BC as you claimed.


Here's some advice - if you can't add, subtract or even count I think you should avoid posting this crap. Is that clear enough and Christian enough for you?

 

[MattHenry]

He already told you how so in his first post. I already debunked this theory in another thread (albeit via another detail).

Which was that?

 

[MattHenry]

How so???? I called it out on a prior post.

Real Christian of you to post nonsense I might add.

You said

Can you count them off?

1st year - 536 BC
2nd year - 535 BC
3rd year - ??????

Hint - it's not 533 BC as you claimed.


Here's some advice - if you can't add, subtract or even count I think you should avoid posting this crap. Is that clear enough and Christian enough for you?

But you're stuck believing that
3-1/2 years is a "long time" in prophecy.
That 3-1/2 years covered the successive kingdom beasts reigns.
That 3-1/2 years covered the "scattering of the power of the holy people", when it is apparent that the restoration of their land was 1948 and the completion of the scattering of their power was when they wrested Jerusalem from the Muslims.

Isn't that odd?

 

[KerrMetric]

But you're stuck believing that
3-1/2 years is a "long time" in prophecy.
That 3-1/2 years covered the successive kingdom beasts reigns.
That 3-1/2 years covered the "scattering of the power of the holy people", when it is apparent that the restoration of their land was 1948 and the completion of the scattering of their power was when they wrested Jerusalem from the Muslims.

Isn't that odd?

Irrelevant.

You made an error. Now be a man and admit it. Do the honest thing - if you don't you'll make Jesus cry and God gets mighty ticked off when someone makes Jesus cry.

Just admit your error.

 

[MattHenry]

Irrelevant.

At least you've got a sense of humor.
While you're out there seeming to suggest that BC historical dating is supposed to be accurate to the year, you find it irrelevant that your eschatology is a complete non-starter textually. An absolute absurdity.

And mathematically it is about some future someday....

"The folly of interpreters has been to foretell times and things by this prophecy [Revelation], as if God designed to make them prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify men's curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own providence, not the interpreters', be then manifested thereby to the world. For the event of things predicted many ages before will then be a convincing argument that the world is governed by Providence." - Sir Isaac Newton

Indeed. "88 reasons Jesus is coming in 1988". "89 reasons...."

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

You made an error. Now be a man and admit it. Do the honest thing - if you don't you'll make Jesus cry and God gets mighty ticked off when someone makes Jesus cry.

Just admit your error.

You seem to have missed that I posted about an (at leat) 2-3 year factor of ambiguity in BC dating (that is except for the few instances where dates are immortalized on cornerstones and such). Perhaps you never noticed the hypen between two numbers that frequently occurs in that dating. If you visit the Yahoo link you will understand what you apparently can't understand from my explanation. The hyphen means an approximate range between the two numbers hyphenated.

Thanks so much for wearing your heart on your sleeve in regard to the irreverence expressed toward my Lord and Savior.

 

[KerrMetric]

your eschatology is a complete non-starter textually.

Could you please point out where I ever stated an eschatology?

Nope - didn't think so. Are you being deliberately deceitful or do your errors extend from arithmetic to reading comprehension as well?

You seem to have missed that I told you that there is (at leat) a 2-3 year factor of ambiguity in historical dating. Perhaps you never noticed the hypen between two numbers. That means an approximate range between those two numbers.

Again irrelevant. You were making a big deal about getting the years 1948 and 1967 yet your calculations were in error. Now you want to brush this off as approximation.

I know what is not an approximation however - and that is your lack of trustworthiness as a researcher. Please - stick to the day job, this other line isn't for you.

Thanks so much for wearing your heart on your sleeve.

Call 'em as I see 'em. When I see silliness I'll point it out. You have absolutely nothing to offer here except errors and thereby falsehoods.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

At least you've got a sense of humor.
While you're out there seeming to suggest that BC historical dating is supposed to be accurate to the year, you find it irrelevant that your eschatology is a complete non-starter textually.

And mathematically it is about some future someday....

"The folly of interpreters has been to foretell times and things by this prophecy [Revelation], as if God designed to make them prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify men's curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own providence, not the interpreters', be then manifested thereby to the world. For the event of things predicted many ages before will then be a convincing argument that the world is governed by Providence." - Sir Isaac Newton

Indeed. "88 reasons Jesus is coming in 1988". "89 reasons...."

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


You seem to have missed that I posted about an (at leat) 2-3 year factor of ambiguity in historical dating. Perhaps you never noticed the hypen between two numbers that frequently occurs in that dating. If you visit the Yahoo link you will understand what you apparently can't understand from my explanation. The hyphen means an approximate range between the two numbers hyphenated.

Thanks so much for wearing your heart on your sleeve in regard to the irreverence expressed toward my Lord and Savior.

So, when people don't agree with you, they:

1. Are seeing through a doctrinal filter.
2. Are blind and deaf...having scales on their eyes and ears.
3. Are "turning their ears from the truth" to what their itching ears want to hear.
4. Hopelessly lost in the doctrines of some guy named Darby.

How would you feel if people accused you of the same?

Now, it couldn't be that people want BIBLICAL proof and intellectual honesty as well as hearing it from a kind man of God instead of one who continuously bashes and bullies, could it? Do you think that Christians who are interested in eschatology are just going to take whatever theory comes down the pike without testing it?

 

[Yekcidmij]

Someone sees some sarcasm slinging sailing so spontaneously.

 

[GrandGuignol]

As i read the responses in this thread and others in this forum one thing strikes me more than any other. Where is the Christian love. Don't tell me your tired of dealing with fools and have grown short, because thats just a cop out. if your tired of being Christian, and loving your brother then you were never really a Christian anyway. which disqualifies you from commenting on prophecy. i think vanity is at the root of this fray, and most of you evil vain posters should pray the sin of your heart be forgiven you. i promise i may be stupid at times, but i will never be mean to my brother. i might be right, but i will not poke it at you, nor will i take shots at you when you are wrong. any Christian that might happen along would do the same i'm sure. i prophecy that this kind of division will be at the root of Gods wrath when it is poured out on men. Please do the Christian thing and stop before its too late