Daniel's 70th week

[jgr]

Thanks your response.

We are 95% in agreement. But I would suggest that Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:31 and Luke 21:33 is the demarcation.

Matthew 24:35-51: “Heaven and earth shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai], but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Mark 13:31-37: “Heaven and earth shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.”

Luke 21:33-38: “Heaven and earth shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives. And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.”

(1) I agree with you re "that day." It normally refers to the second coming. But please see highlighted above.

(2) A careful study of the Greek words ouranos and gē mentioned in 2 Peter 3, which some Premils are forced to redefine, shows your interpretation to be in error. 59 times in the New Testament “heaven” and “earth” are found together in the same passage describing exactly what the outside of the box says – what most ordinary people would understand as the “heaven” and “earth.” Interestingly in every case the two Greek words ouranos and gē are employed to describe the heavenly realm and the globe of the earth. Philippians 2:10 is the only slight variation, although it is only a technical difference, where a literal reading of the text should read ‘earthly’ (epigeios) and ‘heavenly’ (epouranios). However, both significantly were derived from the same two repeated Greek words used elsewhere to describe “heaven” and “earth” – ouranos and gē. What is more, of the 6 references to “heavens” (plural) and “earth” all use these two same Greek words.

(3) What is in view is clearly not a localized event. The very use of “heaven and earth,” without any attached qualification, allows us to understand this as a universal event. The repeated literal meaning of the two Greek words when combined together supports this conclusion.

(4) This is reinforced by the fact the recipients being warned are not merely the residents of the city of Jerusalem, as Full Preterists argue, but a global audience. As Luke 21:35 states: “For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.” This could not be clearer!

(5) The detail here fits in with other climactic Scripture that describes the very same literal future event. 2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Please note the highlighted (in blue) references to Christ's glorious coming.

Creation will be finally purged of wickedness, all the wicked, rebellion and all degeneration forever when Jesus comes. If the remedy for the corruption of the old heavens and earth is the introduction of a brand-new perfect heavens and earth then we are looking at an all-consummating reference to the destruction of the current globe and the existing heavens. The old arrangement that is marked by sin and insurrection is indeed destroyed by fire (as Peter said) and changed to a new glorified perfect arrangement “wherein dwelleth righteousness.” This allows no room for the continuation of unrighteousness or corruption, as Premils insists. Such is totally eliminated through the conflagration.

The new heavens and new earth are such a stark contrast to this current present evil age that is blighted by all the result of the fall, including the existence of Satan. The new arrangement is especially noted for “righteousness.”

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth [Gr. gē] and the heaven [Gr. ouranos] fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven [Gr. ouranos] and a new earth [Gr. gē]: for the first heaven [Gr. ouranos] and the first earth [Gr. gē] were passed away [Gr. parerchomai]; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”

Revelation 22:3 tells us that the new heavens and new earth arrive “there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of a fiery renewal.

Finally, (6), when talking about the removal of the current “heaven and earth,” the 5 major similar texts, describing regeneration of both at the coming of the Lord, use the same Greek word parerchomai indicating the ‘passing away’ of the current corrupt natural arrangement we are experiencing now and its replacement with a brand new incorrupt creation.

I concur re. our 95% agreement.

But the meaning of "generation" in Matthew 24:34 cannot be dismissed.

What do you think?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I concur re. our 95% agreement.

But the meaning of "generation" in Matthew 24:34 cannot be dismissed.

What do you think?

i’m busy at the moment on the road. I will respond to this later.

 

[claninja]

Daniel 7:18 says, “the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.”

We have already entered into the kingdom through the new birth (John 3:3), which is repeatedly described as everlasting life.

Correct, we are presently in the kingdom, scripture is clear on that

Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

But that is different than inheriting the kingdom. For scripture is clear that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, and the saints inherit the kingdom after being separated from the goats.

1 Corinthians 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable

Matthew 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Daniel 7:27 continues, “And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.”

This is speaking about the here-and-now. It is speaking about a spiritual kingdom. Only the saints belong to the kingdom. In this kingdom Christ rules and reigns over all dominion and power. He now exercises supreme authority as sovereign King.

What is been taught here is that the many earthly kingdoms throughout time only last for a season. They arise and they fall. They each have an expiration date. But the kingdom of God, which believers belong to a heavenly kingdom which lasts “forever” because it is “an everlasting kingdom.” This is meant in the midst of describing the wickedness of the various evil man-made kingdoms to remind and reassure the believer of the kingdom he belongs to.

I absolutely agree.

Christ ushered in the kingdom of God when He came. Jesus said in Matthew 11:12, “from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth (biazo) violence, and the (biastes) violent take it by force.”

Jesus said, in Luke 16:16, “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man (biazo) presseth into it.”

We should immediately note: for men to be able to press into the kingdom and for it to suffer violence it must already exist. The Greek word biazo here means to force, to crowd oneself into, or to seize. The kingdom of God is shown here to be a present reality that the righteous enter upon salvation. This has been the case since John the Baptist. The spiritual kingdom Christ brought was very-much alive and active from the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry.

I agree. Scripture is clear that the kingdom of God is like a fishing net. This net gathers good and bad. Scripture is clear that the kingdom of God is like a sower that sows Good seed in His field. These are realities in which we are in the kingdom.

Thus we are in agreement that the saints were in the kingdom beginning in the 1st century all the way till today.

But when do the saints INHERIT/POSSESS the kingdom? Christ received the kingdom at his ascension to the Father (Daniel 7:13-14, Luke 19:12). Why would it be different for believers?

Sadly, the overwhelming majority of Jews missed their promised Messiah when He came. He just didn’t fit their expectation of who and what the Messiah was to be. Also, they had an erroneous political racial perception of what the kingdom was. They had a carnal earthly view of Messiah and His kingdom. They believed that the first thing He would do was subjugate all national Israel’s enemies, starting with the Romans. When Christ appeared at His first advent, the Jews imagined He would reinstate the now defunct earthly throne of Israel and reign victorious over the physical nation, restoring their ancient borders. The only problem was: they had a defective hyper-literalist understanding of Old Testament prophesies and a misconception of how the kingdom would look.

This is a fantastic assessment, one that I would absolutely agree with.

 

[claninja]

When did believers begin going to heaven upon physical death and on what grounds?

Yes, I would also like you to answer this question Claninja. What year please?

The 1st century "present tense" standing of the physical tabernacle building was a simile for the 1st century "present age" that the way into the holy places was not yet manifested, as clearly stated in scripture.

Hebrews 9:8-9 the Holy Spirit this evidencing that not yet hath been manifested the way of the holy places, the first tabernacle having yet a standing; which [is] a simile in regard to the present time, in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered, which are not able, in regard to conscience, to make perfect him who is serving

Thus the removal of the tabernacle would represent the the way into the Holy places was manifest.

This is consistent with Paul stating associating Death's sting of sin being associated with the power granted to it by the Law. Thus with the complete abolition of the old obsolete covenant, sin no longer had its power from the Law.

1 corinthians 15:50-56 And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption; lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we — we shall be changed: for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality; and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, ‘The Death was swallowed up — to victory; where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?’ and the sting of the death [is] the sin, and the power of the sin the law.

This is also consistent with olivet discourse in which after the destruction of the temple the elect are then gathered by the angels.

Matthew 24:29-31 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken; and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory; and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof.

 

[claninja]

You are repeatedly applying general resurrection passages and general judgment passages to the coming of Titus in AD70 rather than Jesus at the end is Full Preterism.

Incorrect. Please avoid strawman arguments. Titus doesnt bring life to the dead, nor does Titus judge the living/dead. Only God does that.

It is “the sheep” alone (vv 32-33), who are identified as “ye blessed” (v 34) and “the righteous,” that “inherit the kingdom” (v 34), which in turn is shown to be “life eternal” (v 46). Only the glorified elect can fulfil this description. This proves that inheritance into the kingdom of God is also inheritance into eternity bliss. Surely none could deny that entrance into eternal life equals eternal inheritance. To equate this company with unbelievers is to butcher the text, bless what God curses, curse what God blesses, redefine clear and explicit biblical terms and invent a third group of people that Scripture knows nothing about.

The only other group that Christ recognizes is “the goats” (vv 33 & 34), who are labelled as “ye cursed” (v 41); who are cast “into everlasting fire” (v 41) and receive “everlasting punishment” (v 46).

To “inherit the kingdom” (v 34) and “life eternal” (v 46) and to escape “everlasting fire” (v 41) or “everlasting punishment” (v 46) comes through a personal faith in Christ alone, not good works as you insinuate. The reality is, believers care for the brethren - if they truly know Christ. Scripture depicts the genuine believer (the one that has found Christ through grace alone, through faith alone) as one who loves the brethren.

One of the great problems many encounter when trying to ascertain the meaning of such parables as this is that they feel compelled to view it through the lens of a well-formulated school of thought rather than letting such a simple allegory speak for itself. Many modern-day end-time students are so indoctrinated with a complicated system of theology that they are impaired from comprehending the meaning and application of many of the parables. They are forced to place a stretched meaning upon the narrative that correlates with their existing dogma. This results in the most amazing and fanciful of meanings to be placed upon the story.

The sheep don't recognize that they were doing good works, hence they ask Jesus when did they feed him, or cloth him?

Matthew 25:37-38 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink? and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around? and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?

The sheep are the righteous, those who did not intentionally pursue righteousness by works of the law, but faith as confirmed by Paul. They did not intentionally pursue righteousness thus they ask Jesus, when did we do these things for you?

Romans 9:30 What, then, shall we say? that nations who are not pursuing righteousness did attain to righteousness, and righteousness that [is] of faith


The goats, however, have an inappropriate self righteous response. They ask when did they NOT do these things for Jesus.

Matthew 25:44 Then shall they answer, they also, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in prison, and we did not minister to thee?

This is clearly Israel who pursued righteousness by the works of the Law and not by Faith. This is confirmed by Paul.

Romans 9:31-32 and Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, at a law of righteousness did not arrive; wherefore? because — not by faith, but as by works of law; for they did stumble at the stone of stumbling,

 

[sovereigngrace]

The 1st century "present tense" standing of the physical tabernacle building was a simile for the 1st century "present age" that the way into the holy places was not yet manifested, as clearly stated in scripture.

Hebrews 9:8-9 the Holy Spirit this evidencing that not yet hath been manifested the way of the holy places, the first tabernacle having yet a standing; which [is] a simile in regard to the present time, in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered, which are not able, in regard to conscience, to make perfect him who is serving

Thus the removal of the tabernacle would represent the the way into the Holy places was manifest.

This is consistent with Paul stating associating Death's sting of sin being associated with the power granted to it by the Law. Thus with the complete abolition of the old obsolete covenant, sin no longer had its power from the Law.

1 corinthians 15:50-56 And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption; lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we — we shall be changed: for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality; and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, ‘The Death was swallowed up — to victory; where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?’ and the sting of the death [is] the sin, and the power of the sin the law.

This is also consistent with olivet discourse in which after the destruction of the temple the elect are then gathered by the angels.

Matthew 24:29-31 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken; and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory; and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof.

So, are you saying that the dead in Christ were raised in AD70 from Hades and relocated to heaven then? If, this is correct, how were they raised? Were they raised in spirit or in body?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I concur re. our 95% agreement.

But the meaning of "generation" in Matthew 24:34 cannot be dismissed.

What do you think?

Have you any further comments on my detailed post?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Incorrect. Please avoid strawman arguments. Titus does bring life to the dead, nor does Titus judge the living/dead. Only God does that.



The sheep don't recognize that they were doing good works, hence they ask Jesus when did they feed him, or cloth him?

Matthew 25:37-38 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink? and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around? and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?

The sheep are the righteous, those who did not intentionally pursue righteousness by works of the law, but faith as confirmed by Paul. They did not intentionally pursue righteousness thus they ask Jesus, when did we do these things for you?

Romans 9:30 What, then, shall we say? that nations who are not pursuing righteousness did attain to righteousness, and righteousness that [is] of faith


The goats, however, have an inappropriate self righteous response. They as when did they NOT do these things for Jesus.

Matthew 25:44 Then shall they answer, they also, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in prison, and we did not minister to thee?

This is clearly Israel who pursued righteousness by the works of the Law and not by Faith. This is confirmed by Paul.

Romans 9:31-32 and Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, at a law of righteousness did not arrive; wherefore? because — not by faith, but as by works of law; for they did stumble at the stone of stumbling,

Resurrection/judgment day is still future. The separation is going to happen at the future coming of Christ, not the past coming of Titus, as Full Preterists argue.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I concur re. our 95% agreement.

But the meaning of "generation" in Matthew 24:34 cannot be dismissed.

What do you think?

Both the Greek words genos and genea refer to race - in this case the Jewish race. I believe it means "this race" - as in "the successive members of a particular genealogy."

Notwithstanding, the detail before the references to "this generation" in the parallel passages describe the second coming of Jesus in the future, not the coming of Titus in AD70. So even if a limited physical generation was required of the text it would be one preceding Christ's return.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:23-34: “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”

Jesus said in Mark 13:21-30: “And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.”

Jesus said in Luke 21:25-32: “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.”

 

[jgr]

Both the Greek words genos and genea refer to race - in this case the Jewish race. I believe it means "this race" - as in "the successive members of a particular genealogy."

Notwithstanding, the detail before the references to "this generation" in the parallel passages describe the second coming of Jesus in the future, not the coming of Titus in AD70. So even if a limited physical generation was required of the text it would be one preceding Christ's return.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:23-34: “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”

Jesus said in Mark 13:21-30: “And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.”

Jesus said in Luke 21:25-32: “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.”

Generation:
"3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30;"


The Jewish race is the entire human race.

After over 3,000 years of genetic dispersion and diffusion, Abraham's physical DNA is ubiquitous in the human population of planet earth. The Jews themselves acknowledge and applaud this reality.

Dispensationalism must racialize the Word of God to perpetuate the "two peoples of God" fallacy.

It is untenable Scripturally, mathematically, and genetically.


Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

 

[sovereigngrace]

Generation:
"3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30;"


The Jewish race is the entire human race.

After over 3,000 years of genetic dispersion and diffusion, Abraham's physical DNA is ubiquitous in the human population of planet earth. The Jews themselves acknowledge and applaud this reality.

Dispensationalism must racialize the Word of God to perpetuate the "two peoples of God" fallacy.

It is untenable Scripturally, mathematically, and genetically.


Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

First of all, race means absolutely nothing today. It carries no spiritual merit or favor. They are all loosely identified by blood, identify, culture or religion. So, there is no pure or wholistic race. But even after Christ had introduced the new covenant, physical Israel was still being acknowledged as Israel, Jews as Jews, the uncircumcision as uncircumcision. But we know there is no advantage to such a people, however they get their identify.

Secondly, and most importantly, and this is what I was wanting you to address, the detail surrounding the phrase in Matthew 24:23-34, Mark 13:21-30 and Luke 21:25-32 describes the second coming.

 

[claninja]

So, are you saying that the dead in Christ were raised in AD70 from Hades and relocated to heaven then? If, this is correct, how were they raised? Were they raised in spirit or in body?

Yes, the dead, whether in the the grave or hades, etc...were raised to heaven around the time of the removal of the tabernacle (hebrews 9:8-9) at the coming of Christ in judgment upon Israel.

Now, as your question about how they are raised or what kind of body they have, Paul addresses this very question asked by those in the 1st century, so I'll let Paul explain it:

1 Corinthians 15:35-41 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Yes, the dead, whether in the the grave or hades, etc...were raised to heaven around the time of the removal of the tabernacle (hebrews 9:8-9) at the coming of Christ in judgment upon Israel.

You show no biblical support for that. That is just another assumption you force on the sacred text. Full Preterism is built upon false assumptions, specious inferences and flawed hermeneutics. Hebrews 9:1-10 does not remotely address or support your allegation. There is absolutely nothing here that mentions or suggests that the elect are being freed from Hades. You impute it into the text to support Preterism. It is simply talking about the old covenant. It is speaking about a time before Christ sinless life, atoning death and victorious resurrection.

Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Heb 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
Heb 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Heb 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
Heb 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercy seat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
Heb 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Whatever angle you look at, it negates your theory.

Now, as you to your question about how they are raised or what kind of body they have, Paul addresses this very question asked by those in the 1st century, so I'll let Paul explain it:

1 Corinthians 15:35-41 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

When do they receive their heavenly bodies?

 

[claninja]

Resurrection/judgment day is still future.

I agree.

The separation is going to happen at the future coming of Christ,

You don't believe those in Christ go to heaven upon death?

not the past coming of Titus, as Full Preterists argue.

I would agree, if the full preterist or partial preterist believes Titus is the reason that the dead go to heaven and not Christ, that would be blasphemous. But I have never heard of any partial or full preterist believing this, so would you mind sharing where you are getting this information from?

 

[claninja]

You show no biblical support for that. That is just another assumption you force on the sacred text. Full Preterism is built upon false assumptions, specious inferences and flawed hermeneutics. Hebrews 9:1-10 does not remotely address or support your allegation. There is absolutely nothing here that mentions or suggests that the elect are being freed from Hades. You impute it into the text to support Preterism. It is simply talking about the old covenant. It is speaking about a time before Christ sinless life, atoning death and victorious resurrection.

Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Heb 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
Heb 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Heb 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
Heb 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercy seat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
Heb 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Whatever angle you look at, it negates your theory.

The tabernacle still stood, while the author of Hebrews wrote this, hence "still standing" is a present tense verb. The author evens adds "which is symbolic for the PRESENT AGE".

Thus, by the priests still performing their duties in the 1st century standing temple (present age), the Holy Spirit indicated that the way into the holy places was not yet manifested, as clearly stated by scripture. The standing temple, with priests performing their duties is symbolic of the way into heaven not yet being manifested. Scripture literally states this. I don't have to "read" into that.

Hebrews 9:6-10 These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties, but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people. By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section IS STILL STANDING (which is symbolic for the PRESENT AGE). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.

As you correctly, stated Jesus appears for us in the presence of God, which was symbolized by the high priest going into the most holy place once a year. Under the old covenant, were regular believers (non high priests) allowed into the Most holy place ever?

What event is associated with the removal of the earthly physical temple? The coming judgment of Christ upon Israel and the gathering of the elect.

Matthew 24:29-31 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Thus the presence of a 'standing' temple was parabolic for the way into heaven not yet being manifested.

When do they receive their heavenly bodies?

Upon rising from the grave/hades.

2 Corinthians 5:1-2 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked.

Do you believe we are found naked when we go home to be with the Lord?

 

[sovereigngrace]

The tabernacle still stood, while the author of Hebrews wrote this, hence "still standing" is a present tense verb. The author evens adds "which is symbolic for the PRESENT AGE".

Thus, by the priests still performing their duties in the 1st century standing temple (present age), the Holy Spirit indicated that the way into the holy places was not yet manifested, as clearly stated by scripture. The standing temple, with priests performing their duties is symbolic of the way into heaven not yet being manifested. Scripture literally states this. I don't have to "read" into that.

Hebrews 9:6-10 These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties, but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people. By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section IS STILL STANDING (which is symbolic for the PRESENT AGE). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.

As you correctly, stated Jesus appears for us in the presence of God, which was symbolized by the high priest going into the most holy place once a year. Under the old covenant, were regular believers (non high priests) allowed into the Most holy place ever?

What event is associated with the removal of the earthly physical temple? The coming judgment of Christ upon Israel and the gathering of the elect.

Matthew 24:29-31 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Thus the presence of a 'standing' temple was parabolic for the way into heaven not yet being manifested.



Upon rising from the grave/hades.

2 Corinthians 5:1-2 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked.

Do you believe we are found naked when we go home to be with the Lord?

There are no direct explicit statements to support your position. All you have are elaborate theories. This is typical of your doctrine. It is always 2+2+2=222, whereas it really equals 6. That is not how biblical interpretation works. Let the Bible speak for itself!

Hades is not even mentioned in Hebrews 9:6-10. Where are your proof texts?

2 Corinthians 5:1-2 is talking about a future hope over the grave.

Matthew 24:29-31 is speaking about the second coming.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Upon rising from the grave/hades.

When did/does that happen?

 

[jgr]

First of all, race means absolutely nothing today. It carries no spiritual merit or favor. They are all loosely identified by blood, identify, culture or religion. So, there is no pure or wholistic race. But even after Christ had introduced the new covenant, physical Israel was still being acknowledged as Israel, Jews as Jews, the uncircumcision as uncircumcision. But we know there is no advantage to such a people, however they get their identify.

True. But from the beginning of covenant history, God extended His covenant to both Jew and Gentile. (Genesis 17:12).

Therefore, confining the meaning of "generation" in Matthew 24:34 to the Jewish race is inconsistent with the heterogeneous ethnic composition of the nation of Israel from its beginning.

Which is why "generation" in that verse means "all of those living at that time", as shown in the lexicon to which I've linked previously.

Secondly, and most importantly, and this is what I was wanting you to address, the detail surrounding the phrase in Matthew 24:23-34, Mark 13:21-30 and Luke 21:25-32 describes the second coming.

As shown previously, verse 34 (not 36, my typo) is the demarcation. Everything prior to it refers to the 70 AD period, using the language of the ancient metaphoric apocalyptic idiom, of which there are numerous OT examples. Psalm 18 is equally as dramatic as Matthew 24, wherein David declares that the Lord came down (Psalm 18:9). Other examples have been cited by others in their posts.

In verse 29, Jesus declares that the phenomena which would follow would occur immediately after the tribulation of those days. There is only one other reference to tribulation in the chapter. It is in verse 21, referring to the tribulation of the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea, which is unparalleled before or after in the annals of history.


Everything after verse 34 refers to the Second Coming.

Jesus answered His disciples' questions in their entirety.

 

[sovereigngrace]

True. But from the beginning of covenant history, God extended His covenant to both Jew and Gentile. (Genesis 17:12).

Therefore, confining the meaning of "generation" in Matthew 24:34 to the Jewish race is inconsistent with the heterogeneous ethnic composition of the nation of Israel from its beginning.

Which is why "generation" in that verse means "all of those living at that time", as shown in the lexicon to which I've linked previously.



As shown previously, verse 34 (not 36, my typo) is the demarcation. Everything prior to it refers to the 70 AD period, using the language of the ancient metaphoric apocalyptic idiom, of which there are numerous OT examples. Psalm 18 is equally as dramatic as Matthew 24, wherein David declares that the Lord came down (Psalm 18:9). Other examples have been cited by others in their posts.

In verse 29, Jesus declares that the phenomena which would follow would occur immediately after the tribulation of those days. There is only one other reference to tribulation in the chapter. It is in verse 21, referring to the tribulation of the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea, which is unparalleled before or after in the annals of history.


Everything after verse 34 refers to the Second Coming.

Jesus answered His disciples' questions in their entirety.

I have to disagree. The approach to, and fulfillment of, the second coming is described from verse 23 onwards.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:23-34: “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”

Jesus said in Mark 13:21-30: “And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.”

Jesus said in Luke 21:25-32: “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."

1. When and how did Jesus "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and … gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" back in AD70 (Mat 24:31 and Mark 13:27)?
2. When and why did all the tribes mourn in AD70?

 

[jgr]

I have to disagree. The approach to, and fulfillment of, the second coming is described from verse 23 onwards.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:23-34: “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”

Jesus said in Mark 13:21-30: “And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.”

Jesus said in Luke 21:25-32: “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."

1. When and how did Jesus "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and … gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" back in AD70 (Mat 24:31 and Mark 13:27)?
2. When and why did all the tribes mourn in AD70?

The counter-question would be:

How did the generation living at that time experience the Second Coming?