Daniel's 70th week

[sovereigngrace]

I don't know that we can be that tight about the interpretation of the "age to come." I haven't really dived into this but there are no univocals in scripture.

We're in the age past the age of the old covenant. That old age ended when the law was fulfilled. And we are part of an eternal kingdom right now, so why wouldn't this be that age?

Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5 tells us: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

Revelation 22:3 tells us that the new heavens and new earth arrive “there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of a fiery renewal.

Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5 and Revelation 22:3 describe the perfect conditions that are introduced when Jesus Christ returns. No one with any sanity could say that such a state exists today. It doesn’t! This only accompanies the glorification of this sin-cursed world, because justice has finally been executed upon sin. It is then and only then that there will be:

· No more death.
· No more crying.
· No more pain.
· No more sorrow.
· No more curse.

While the elect of God finally enters into eternal bless, the wicked correspondingly experience eternal torment. They are shown to be banished into everlasting punishment.

The Second Coming is all-consummating and ushers in the complete end of all things old, temporal, sinful and corrupt. His return introduces the beginning of all things new, eternal, righteous and God-glorifying.

Luke 20:27-33 records: “Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him, Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. Last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.”

Christ replies in Luke 20:34-36: “The children of this world (or aion or age) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (or aion or age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

It is impossible to miss the constant comparison between “this world” and “that world” or “this age” and “that age.” Those who live in this current evil age are described as “the children of this age” but those who are depicted as being “worthy to obtain that age” to come are described exclusively as “the children of God, being the children of the resurrection” and as being “equal unto the angels.” One must be suitably qualified in order inherit the new world to come. Those that are worthy to obtain that age are not mortals and not sinners; they are rather glorified saints – who incidentally never marry or die.

Let us pause for a moment and consider what is being said here: people marry right up until the second coming, but in the age to come they don’t marry because the saints of God will be adorned with their new glorified eternal bodies. What is more: Christ shows that people die right up until the second coming but in the age to come they don’t die. Why? Because sin, sinners and the wicked are not welcome on the new glorified perfected earth that Christ introduces at the second coming. This is not the case with the Premillennial and Preterist age to come; marriage, divorce, funerals and mourning continues unabated. This passage forbids both the Premillennial and Preterist theories.

The contrast here moves from: ‘marriage’ to ‘no marriage’, ‘death’ to ‘no death’. Marriage disappears! Death disappears! The turning point is the glorious coming of Christ and the resurrection that accompanies it. If words carry any meaning in Scripture then the whole Premillennial and Preterist schemes falls apart with such a passage. After all, in their paradigm, sin, corruption, death and rebellion continues on unabated in the supposed Premillennial and Preterist ‘ages to come’.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I don't know that we can be that tight about the interpretation of the "age to come." I haven't really dived into this but there are no univocals in scripture.

We're in the age past the age of the old covenant. That old age ended when the law was fulfilled. And we are part of an eternal kingdom right now, so why wouldn't this be that age?

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 records: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

As Jesus comes and rescues ‘the just’ in the twinkling of an eye He also destroys ‘the unjust’. This passage is an irrefutable description of the end. Those “in Adam all die.” The second coming is shown to be the termination of all insurrection. It is the time “when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.” But equally, “in Christ shall all be made alive.” This is the time “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father.” It is clear that everything is tied up at the end (“His coming”). This is the event when the elect are glorified in order to equip them to inherit the new perfect arrangement. This involves them being given new glorified bodies that are completely devoid of sin and corruption.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 explains, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (phthora or decay) inherit incorruption (aphthrsia or unending existence). Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed (allasso), In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed (allasso). For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

Mortals are not qualified to inherit the new earth, as they are plagued by the blight of corruption – which is expressly forbidden from the new earth. Sinful mortals (in their corruptible bodies) will not even survive the Lord’s climactic Coming never mind enter the glorified earth. They cannot abide the glorious presence of Christ at His appearing. It would be totally impossible for flesh and blood to inhabit such a glorious setting. Anyway, there will be no more curse on the world, as death will be swallowed up in victory. The bondage of corruption will finally be banished.

As Augustine put it: “And by this universal conflagration the qualities of the corruptible elements which suited our corruptible bodies shall utterly perish, and our substance shall receive such qualities as shall, by a wonderful transmutation, harmonize with our immortal bodies, so that, as the world itself is renewed to some better thing, it is fitly accommodated to men, themselves renewed in their flesh to some better thing” (The City of God, Book XX Chapter 16).

We must note the careful connection between “flesh and blood” and “corruption” (which relates to “this present time”) in comparison to “the kingdom of God” (that appears in all its final glory when “the trumpet shall sound”) and “incorruption.” To secure man’s access to this glorified eternal kingdom, which is inherited alone by the meek (Psalm 37:9-11, 22, Matthew 5:5), “this corruptible must put on incorruption.” This passage, which is speaking of the period immediately following the Coming of Christ, confirms that no element of the fall can access the incorruptible eternal kingdom.

This changeover from “this present evil age” blighted with “the bondage of corruption” to the bliss and splendor of “incorruption” and “the glory which shall be revealed in us” doesn’t happen until the return of Christ. The transition from this temporal evil age to the new perfect eternal age happens at Christ’s return. Scripture show this glorious climatic event will see the glorification of God’s people and the glorification of this earth. The means by which God removes corruption from this earth at the end is by fire. People need to be glorified in order to equip them to populate the new perfected environment.

This reading makes plain, “flesh and blood” or mortal believers cannot inherit a glorified earth that has been purified by fire of every last vestige of the curse.

Interestingly, this Greek word allasso used to describe the glorification of the earth in Hebrews 1:10-12 is also used to describe the glorification of the elect in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52: “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed (allasso), In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed (allasso).”

For those who try and dilute or delay the complete and instant change that occurs to this earth when Christ comes, they miss the purpose of Christ’s return. He is coming to perfect that which is His. The elect creature and the fallen earth are going to be instantly glorified. It is highly significant that the same word used to describe the complete change in the constitution and form of the current earth from old to new is the exact same word as is used to describe the change of the believer from corruption to incorruption at the second coming.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I don't know that we can be that tight about the interpretation of the "age to come." I haven't really dived into this but there are no univocals in scripture.

We're in the age past the age of the old covenant. That old age ended when the law was fulfilled. And we are part of an eternal kingdom right now, so why wouldn't this be that age?

Repeated Scripture tells us that the curse upon man will last until Christ returns. It also tells us that the current heavens and earth will one day be replaced by a new regenerated heavens and earth. That is because the current arrangement has been cursed by sin. As a consequence, our universe is finite and deteriorating, and its history will one day come to an end. All history currently sits in between creation and the consummation. The whole of Scripture (Old Testament and New Testament) looks forward to the day of restoration and perfection. As a result, all creation waits with eager anticipation for that glorious moment when corruption will be banished from all creation forever.

The deliverance of this earth occurs when we are finally delivered (caught up – and perfected). It is connected to our glorification. It is shown in Holy Writ as an event, not a process. The fiery destruction envelops this current earth and removes the corruption completely. We then return to a regenerated earth where there is no death or decay.

2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming (parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Creation will be finally purged of wickedness, all the wicked, rebellion and all degeneration forever when Jesus comes. If the remedy for the corruption of the old heavens and earth is the introduction of a brand-new perfect heavens and earth then we are looking at an all-consummating reference to the destruction of the current globe and the existing heavens. The old arrangement that is marked by sin and insurrection is indeed destroyed by fire (as Peter said) and changed to a new glorified perfect arrangement “wherein dwelleth righteousness.” This allows no room for the continuation of unrighteousness or corruption, as Premils insists. Such is totally eliminated through the conflagration.

The new heavens and new earth are such a stark contrast to this current present evil age that is blighted by all the result of the fall, including the existence of Satan. The new arrangement is especially noted for “righteousness.”

Scripture tells us that we are coming back to earth, but it will be a regenerated earth (Malachi 4:1-3, I Corinthians 15:50, 2 Peter 3). It will be an earth totally purged of all deterioration. The new heavens and a new earth (in whatever form God chooses) will appear at the Coming of Christ. It will involve (at very least) the burning up of the crust of our current earth. This current earth will be totally changed/regenerated – making it a new curse-free environment. The earth will be restored to its previous pristine condition. These passages would sway me towards the position that this earth will remain forever – only in a new condition.

 

[Christian Gedge]

We're in the age past the age of the old covenant. That old age ended when the law was fulfilled. And we are part of an eternal kingdom right now, so why wouldn't this be that age?

Where do you place the switch-point between the Old and New covenants Al?

 

[Al Touthentop]

Where do you place the switch-point between the Old and New covenants Al?

Right where Peter placed it. At Christ's death and resurrection. When Jesus said, "it is finished." There was about 40 years where God allowed the gospel to be preached to the Jews before he finally destroyed Jerusalem and I think that most of the New Testament books were written before that happened. So I think God had mercy on those who hadn't heard and were still obeying the old law. Hebrews is pretty well placed before the destruction of the temple since Paul writes there that the sacrifices, though ineffective, were still being offered daily.

Based on what I've seen from the authors have written, the destruction of the temple is the end of the "last days" of old testament prophecy even though there is a clear mark where the old law was done away with. The last days seem to extend to the end of the temple. That's why John writes in his first letter that it was the "last hour." It still hadn't happened yet.

Hebrews 1
"God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Paul writes here that he believed he was in a certain period of last days as spoken of by the prophets. They weren't over yet. But I do think they ended when the temple was destroyed and that was the completion of all OT prophecy about the holy city and the end of that era.

This doesn't necessary mean we're not in a period of last days, but it is impossible to know that because there still could be ten thousand years until the Last Day or it could be tommorow.

The 'last days' of old testament prophecy spoke about the end of the old covenant and the events that would occur in those days. Obviously NT authors believed they lived in those days.

 

[Al Touthentop]

For those who try and dilute or delay the complete and instant change that occurs to this earth when Christ comes, they miss the purpose of Christ’s return. He is coming to perfect that which is His. The elect creature and the fallen earth are going to be instantly glorified. It is highly significant that the same word used to describe the complete change in the constitution and form of the current earth from old to new is the exact same word as is used to describe the change of the believer from corruption to incorruption at the second coming.

I agree with you. I just think the end of the age of the old covenant already happened at the destruction of the temple. The old covenant ended at the cross, the age ended when the temple was destroyed. The 'last days' of OT prophecy.

I believe we're already in the new age and its end will be when Christ comes again. Whether or not we're in the last days of this age cannot be determined since we have no idea how close we are to the last day. None of what I understand to be true is in conflict (or at least I don't think so) with what you've written here.

I agree that people totally miss the point when they try to shoehorn OT prophecy into the modern era and assert that there will be a thousand year physical reign. I think that we're in that 'thousand years' right now. Revelation was not all forward prophecy. Some of it was current and past.

 

[sovereigngrace]

the age ended when the temple was destroyed. The 'last days' of OT prophecy.

I believe we're already in the new age and its end will be when Christ comes again. Whether or not we're in the last days of this age cannot be determined since we have no idea how close we are to the last day. None of what I understand to be true is in conflict (or at least I don't think so) with what you've written here.

I appreciate your thoughts!

In my opinion where you are getting it wrong is that you are equating the old and the new covenants with "this age" and "the age to come." This is classic eisegesis.
There is no Scripture to support that. That is a personal inference, theological bias, or a faulty comparison. You make the apex of history and the turning around of all things the coming of Titus in AD70. This is wrong!

Scripture shows that the demarcation line between "this age" and "the age to come" is clearly and repeatedly shown to be the climatic coming of Christ and the restoration of all things. It is when we moved from time to eternity. The New Testament detail attributed to "the age to come" makes it impossible for us to be there currently. It is a perfect and sinless age. The curse has finally been lifted.

You have moved that time forward 2000+ years, but this conflicts with the inspired text. I have provided various Scripture that proves this yet you have ignored that and simply repeated the party line. This is where I digress with Preterism. They are fixated with AD70 and the coming of Titus, when Scripture is focused on the First and Second Advents. This is period is the last days period described in both the OT and the NT. This is period predicted in OT Scripture that Christ reigns over His enemies and where He invades Satan's territory (namely the nations) with the Gospel light. The last day of the last days occurs at the second coming.

Would you please address the proof-texts I submitted?

 

[Christian Gedge]

The old covenant ended at the cross, the age ended when the temple was destroyed. The 'last days' of OT prophecy.

You need to tighten this. I hope to elaborate on the old/new covenant switchpoint here. Hoping we can focus on it because dates matter.

 

[Al Touthentop]

You need to tighten this. I hope to elaborate on the old/new covenant switchpoint here. Hoping we can focus on it because dates matter.

What is loose about it? Scripture itself says that the old covenant was nailed to the cross. So the sacrifices "ended" in the sense that they no longer atoned for sins. The law itself died.

 

[Al Touthentop]

I appreciate your thoughts!

In my opinion where you are getting it wrong is that you are equating the old and the new covenants with "this age" and "the age to come." This is classic eisegesis.
There is no Scripture to support that. That is a personal inference, theological bias, or a faulty comparison. You make the apex of history and the turning around of all things the coming of Titus in AD70. This is wrong!

And what is wrong about it?

Scripture shows that the demarcation line between "this age" and "the age to come" is clearly and repeatedly shown to be the climatic coming of Christ and the restoration of all things. It is when we moved from time to eternity. The New Testament detail attributed to "the age to come" makes it impossible for us to be there currently. It is a perfect and sinless age. The curse has finally been lifted.

Only if you read that phrase as meaning exactly the same thing every time you see it written. Have you ever examined how the phrase breaking of bread can mean either a regular meal or the Lord's supper in the same paragraph?

You have moved that time forward 2000+ years, but this conflicts with the inspired text. I have provided various Scripture that proves this yet you have ignored that and simply repeated the party line. This is where I digress with Preterism. They are fixated with AD70 and the coming of Titus, when Scripture is focused on the First and Second Advents. This is period is the last days period described in both the OT and the NT. This is period predicted in OT Scripture that Christ reigns over His enemies and where He invades Satan's territory (namely the nations) with the Gospel light. The last day of the last days occurs at the second coming.

I'm not just repeating a party line. Paul himself speaks of more than one age.

Ephesians
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 4
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

What age is he talking about? The age of the new earth? No. The temple hasn't yet been destroyed. The old age isn't completely finished yet (or there is another possibility). In the beginning of the book Paul refers to his current time as "these last days." What last days? The last days of the time of the Jews. In fact, you could possibly read this as the current age in this case because he could be talking in the future past, a thing often done. Jesus says "if you can accept it, he is Elijah who is to come" speaking of John the baptist who was already beheaded.

I think it's more likely though that Paul is speaking of the age to come in terms of the finality of the old covenant and the prophecies.

Martha tells Jesus you are the prophet "coming into the world" as he was standing right there. She was quoting prophecy and his teaching on this and speaking in this 'future past' sense. He had already come, she was just confirming her belief that he was the Messiah who was said was "to come."

Matthew 24
"Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" 4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 "And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 "All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. 10 "And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 "Then l many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 "And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Here Jesus predicts the fall of Jerusalem and he tells them that this is "the end." What end? The end of the age, which they just asked about. He does not talk about his second coming here but of his return "on the clouds" to execute wrath and judgement on Jerusalem. He tells them that it will all happen before "this generation" passes. This doesn't mean there isn't an age after this age we live in - the age of the new heaven and earth. But you can't ignore the end line that Jesus refers to here. We're not in the last days of the old covenant, those ended.

And we read in Colossians that the gospel was preached to every nation just as Jesus said.

23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

What IS eternal life anyway? Is it living on the new heaven and earth forever? According to Jesus, THIS is the definition of eternal life:

John 17
3 "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

It's not just the resurrection. It's knowing the only true God. If we're in Christ and we know God, then we right this moment have eternal life as Jesus defined it. So if it came in the "age to come" we have to be in that age right now unless we don't believe his definition of eternal life.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

It's not living in heaven. It's right now.

Matthew 12:32
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Do you think that Jesus was only talking about heaven here? How could anyone blaspheme the Holy Spirit once the new heavens and earth are established and the only people left are those who endured to the end?

There's no sense in that reading. Jesus is specifically here letting us know that there is an age to come and it isn't after his second coming but whenever the current age ends. Is this of the two ages of Judaism and Christianity or is it just generally earthly time he's talking about? You see, you cannot interpret a phrase universally. It just doesn't work. If he is talking about a specific spiritual age of the church, it's the age we're living in right now. If he's talking about after the Last Day, then there must be something wrong because no sin happens after that day does it?

No, I have to conclude that we're living in that particular age right now.

 

[sovereigngrace]

And what is wrong about it?



Only if you read that phrase as meaning exactly the same thing every time you see it written. Have you ever examined how the phrase breaking of bread can mean either a regular meal or the Lord's supper in the same paragraph?



I'm not just repeating a party line. Paul himself speaks of more than one age.

Ephesians
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 4
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

What age is he talking about? The age of the new earth? No. The temple hasn't yet been destroyed. The old age isn't completely finished yet (or there is another possibility). In the beginning of the book Paul refers to his current time as "these last days." What last days? The last days of the time of the Jews. In fact, you could possibly read this as the current age in this case because he could be talking in the future past, a thing often done. Jesus says "if you can accept it, he is Elijah who is to come" speaking of John the baptist who was already beheaded.

I think it's more likely though that Paul is speaking of the age to come in terms of the finality of the old covenant and the prophecies.

Martha tells Jesus you are the prophet "coming into the world" as he was standing right there. She was quoting prophecy and his teaching on this and speaking in this 'future past' sense. He had already come, she was just confirming her belief that he was the Messiah who was said was "to come."

Matthew 24
"Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" 4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 "And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 "All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. 10 "And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 "Then l many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 "And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Here Jesus predicts the fall of Jerusalem and he tells them that this is "the end." What end? The end of the age, which they just asked about. He does not talk about his second coming here but of his return "on the clouds" to execute wrath and judgement on Jerusalem. He tells them that it will all happen before "this generation" passes. This doesn't mean there isn't an age after this age we live in - the age of the new heaven and earth. But you can't ignore the end line that Jesus refers to here. We're not in the last days of the old covenant, those ended.

And we read in Colossians that the gospel was preached to every nation just as Jesus said.

23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

What IS eternal life anyway? Is it living on the new heaven and earth forever? According to Jesus, THIS is the definition of eternal life:

John 17
3 "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

It's not just the resurrection. It's knowing the only true God. If we're in Christ and we know God, then we right this moment have eternal life as Jesus defined it. So if it came in the "age to come" we have to be in that age right now unless we don't believe his definition of eternal life.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

It's not living in heaven. It's right now.

Matthew 12:32
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Do you think that Jesus was only talking about heaven here? How could anyone blaspheme the Holy Spirit once the new heavens and earth are established and the only people left are those who endured to the end?

There's no sense in that reading. Jesus is specifically here letting us know that there is an age to come and it isn't after his second coming but whenever the current age ends. Is this of the two ages of Judaism and Christianity or is it just generally earthly time he's talking about? You see, you cannot interpret a phrase universally. It just doesn't work. If he is talking about a specific spiritual age of the church, it's the age we're living in right now. If he's talking about after the Last Day, then there must be something wrong because no sin happens after that day does it?

No, I have to conclude that we're living in that particular age right now.

1. When was/is sin eliminated?
2. When was/is the sinner eliminated?
3. When was/is death eliminated?
4. When was/is corruption eliminated?
5. When was/is Satan eliminated?
6. When was/is marriage eliminated?
7. When was/is perfect righteousness introduced?
8. When was/is peace and perfection finally introduced?
9. When was/is incorruption introduced
10. Are we still living in an "evil age" or not?
11. When does crying stop?
12. When does pain stop?
13. When does sorrow stop?
14. When does curse finish?
15. When was/is all rule, authority and power finally put down?

 

[sovereigngrace]

And what is wrong about it?



Only if you read that phrase as meaning exactly the same thing every time you see it written. Have you ever examined how the phrase breaking of bread can mean either a regular meal or the Lord's supper in the same paragraph?



I'm not just repeating a party line. Paul himself speaks of more than one age.

Ephesians
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 4
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

What age is he talking about? The age of the new earth? No. The temple hasn't yet been destroyed. The old age isn't completely finished yet (or there is another possibility). In the beginning of the book Paul refers to his current time as "these last days." What last days? The last days of the time of the Jews. In fact, you could possibly read this as the current age in this case because he could be talking in the future past, a thing often done. Jesus says "if you can accept it, he is Elijah who is to come" speaking of John the baptist who was already beheaded.

I think it's more likely though that Paul is speaking of the age to come in terms of the finality of the old covenant and the prophecies.

Martha tells Jesus you are the prophet "coming into the world" as he was standing right there. She was quoting prophecy and his teaching on this and speaking in this 'future past' sense. He had already come, she was just confirming her belief that he was the Messiah who was said was "to come."

Matthew 24
"Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" 4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 "And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 "All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. 10 "And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 "Then l many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 "And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Here Jesus predicts the fall of Jerusalem and he tells them that this is "the end." What end? The end of the age, which they just asked about. He does not talk about his second coming here but of his return "on the clouds" to execute wrath and judgement on Jerusalem. He tells them that it will all happen before "this generation" passes. This doesn't mean there isn't an age after this age we live in - the age of the new heaven and earth. But you can't ignore the end line that Jesus refers to here. We're not in the last days of the old covenant, those ended.

And we read in Colossians that the gospel was preached to every nation just as Jesus said.

23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

What IS eternal life anyway? Is it living on the new heaven and earth forever? According to Jesus, THIS is the definition of eternal life:

John 17
3 "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

It's not just the resurrection. It's knowing the only true God. If we're in Christ and we know God, then we right this moment have eternal life as Jesus defined it. So if it came in the "age to come" we have to be in that age right now unless we don't believe his definition of eternal life.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

It's not living in heaven. It's right now.

Matthew 12:32
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Do you think that Jesus was only talking about heaven here? How could anyone blaspheme the Holy Spirit once the new heavens and earth are established and the only people left are those who endured to the end?

There's no sense in that reading. Jesus is specifically here letting us know that there is an age to come and it isn't after his second coming but whenever the current age ends. Is this of the two ages of Judaism and Christianity or is it just generally earthly time he's talking about? You see, you cannot interpret a phrase universally. It just doesn't work. If he is talking about a specific spiritual age of the church, it's the age we're living in right now. If he's talking about after the Last Day, then there must be something wrong because no sin happens after that day does it?

No, I have to conclude that we're living in that particular age right now.

The disciples asked two questions.

Matthew 24:3 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

Mark 13:4 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled (finished or ended)?”

Luke 21:7 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?”

Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming.

 

[Al Touthentop]

The disciples asked two questions.

Matthew 24:3 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

Terrible translation. In Greek it is "consumation of the age." Not end of the world

Mark 13:4 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled (finished or ended)?”

What things? Not the end of the world. He said some there would still be standing when they saw his prophecy come true.

Luke 21:7 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?”

Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming.

None of Matthew 24 can be the last day. Jesus says that even his "coming on the clouds" would happen in their generation. Thus he couldn't have been talking about his second coming there. Note the order of thing said and what was said before he states that they will ALL take place before that generation passes - ie; within 40 years.

 

[Al Touthentop]

1. When was/is sin eliminated?
2. When was/is the sinner eliminated?
3. When was/is death eliminated?
4. When was/is corruption eliminated?
5. When was/is Satan eliminated?
6. When was/is marriage eliminated?
7. When was/is perfect righteousness introduced?
8. When was/is peace and perfection finally introduced?
9. When was/is incorruption introduced
10. Are we still living in an "evil age" or not?
11. When does crying stop?
12. When does pain stop?
13. When does sorrow stop?
14. When does curse finish?
15. When was/is all rule, authority and power finally put down?

Can a person blaspheme the Holy Spirit after the Last Day?

 

[Douggg]

Put the book of Revelation 1260 days, the 42 months, the 3 1/2 days, the time, times, half time on a timeline chart.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Can a person blaspheme the Holy Spirit after the Last Day?

No they cannot.

 

[sovereigngrace]

What is loose about it? Scripture itself says that the old covenant was nailed to the cross. So the sacrifices "ended" in the sense that they no longer atoned for sins. The law itself died.

Who is disagreeing with this? What doesn't make sense is you arguing that we are currently living in the age to come. That's preposterous. That is impossible.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Can a person blaspheme the Holy Spirit after the Last Day?

Are you going to answer these simple questions?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Terrible translation. In Greek it is "consumation of the age." Not end of the world



What things? Not the end of the world. He said some there would still be standing when they saw his prophecy come true.



None of Matthew 24 can be the last day. Jesus says that even his "coming on the clouds" would happen in their generation. Thus he couldn't have been talking about his second coming there. Note the order of thing said and what was said before he states that they will ALL take place before that generation passes - ie; within 40 years.

The consummation of the age is indeed the end of the world. It is the last day! It is the end of time and the beginning of eternity. It is the end of sin and the beginning of the eternal state. It is the end of corruption and the beginning of perfection. It is the end of the curse and the beginning of glorification.

 

[BobRyan]

My first post—thank you for having me participate. I just listened to a well known reformed evangelical teacher in South Carolina preach on Daniel 9.24-27 regarding the 70 weeks. He dogmatically says that the numerics (7, 62, 69, 70) are representational and not specific to real years or time periods—I disagree with that severe interpretation.

He also stated emphatically that the entire set of verses relate to Jesus and that all mentions of the word "he" should be interpreted as Jesus. He doesnt give reasons for that but so be it. For the most part I think this is correct. He also mentions that that the "desolations" verses in Daniel refer only to AD 70 and uses Matt 24 to support this. However i dont believe he is a preterist. Unfortunately in his sermon he dogmatically forgot to mention the second half of verse 27 which says: "and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

Now i dont see how you can make the "he" in verse 27 become Jesus. Can anyone piece together a rational argument that justifies his position? thanks

70 weeks:
1. -- All apocalyptic time lines are day for a year. So 490 years.
2. -- all apocalyptic timelines are contiguous. So 490 years from start to finish
3. -- seventieth week begins with the start of the Messiah's ministry: his baptism
4. Midst of the week - the Messiah is crucified... cut off after 3.5 years
5. Midst of the week - causes sacrifices and offerings to cease - Heb 10:4-10


The entire 490 years are for the Jews - their time of probation where either they accept or reject the Messiah for good.