sovereigngrace

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I actually quoted Thayer's lexicon, not partially and selectively like you, but fully:

"γενεά

genea

Thayer Definition:

1) fathered, birth, nativity

2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family

2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy

2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character


2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation

3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time

4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years."
 
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jgr

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Matthew 24:34 (and Mark 13:30) are listed only in category 3.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Matthew 24:34 (and Mark 13:30) are listed only in category 3.

That is only his personal view. It is no greater than mine or yours. The word was placed there by the Holy Spirit and carries the overall meaning of racial stock. Notwithstanding, and as I have repeatedly said here, if it is to be contextually applied to any generation, it is the one before Christ's one final future climactic coming. Where God has placed it has place the phrase "this generation" has nothing to do with AD70.
 
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Oberamagau

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There were no witnesses because there was no return of Christ to witness. It's difficult to understand how some people think Jesus' words in Mathew 24 passed in the first century.
 
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jgr

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I'm quite confident that his Greek is better than yours and mine.
 
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summerville

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Half a week (3.5 years) Daniel is about Antiochus IV.. It was 3.5years before the Jews rededicated the Temple after he had defiled it with the Abomination of Desolation.
 
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summerville

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The people of the prince to come is Titus and the soldiers he commanded.. not only Roman garrisons, but Egyptians, Syrians and Arabs under his command.
 
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jgr

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The people of the prince to come is Titus and the soldiers he commanded.. not only Roman garrisons, but Egyptians, Syrians and Arabs under his command.

Titus was a prince, but he does not appear in the passage.

Titus the prince and the armies that he commanded were under the command and control of Messiah the Prince.

Messiah the Prince does appear in the passage in verse 25.

He is the only individual in the passage identified as a prince.

The people of the prince were the Roman armies which were His instruments of judgment and destruction.
 
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Christian Gedge

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Half a week (3.5 years) Daniel is about Antiochus IV.. It was 3.5years before the Jews rededicated the Temple after he had defiled it with the Abomination of Desolation.

Dont conflate the vision of chapter 8 with that of chapter 9. The Greek abomination was from Kislev to Kislev, whereas the 'weeks' were from Nisan to Nisan (originally) and later changed to Tishri. Also the Greek abomination lasted 1093 days, slightly less than three years.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The same one you quoted in post 701.

There were 11 witnesses that saw Jesus taken up in a cloud into heaven. What witnesses do we have that actually saw Jesus come in AD70 literally, physically and visibly?

Christ's coming shall be sudden as lightning. What is more sudden, visible and spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret appearance in this text.
 
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jgr

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There were 11 witnesses that saw Jesus taken up in a cloud into heaven. What witnesses do we have that actually saw Jesus come in AD70 literally, physically and visibly?

None, which is what we've been saying.

Christ's coming shall be sudden as lightning. What is more sudden, visible and spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret appearance in this text.

True of His Second Coming.
 
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sovereigngrace

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None, which is what we've been saying.



True.

Jesus words in Matthew 24:27 correlate with repeated Scripture relating to the second coming: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

Christ's coming shall be sudden and visible as lightning. What is more sudden and spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky.

Acts 1:11: “Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

This passage tells us it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven is the way He will return.

How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.


•Physically: “This same Jesus.”
•Visibly: “while they beheld, he was taken up” - “as ye have seen Him go.”
•Literally: “In like manner.”
 
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Douggg

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Half a week (3.5 years) Daniel is about Antiochus IV.. It was 3.5years before the Jews rededicated the Temple after he had defiled it with the Abomination of Desolation.
Antiochus lived 160 years before Jesus. Jesus was cutoff in Daniel 9:26. Then the temple and city destroyed in 70 AD. And the future prince who shall come of those people who destroyed the temple and city, will confirm the covenant for 7 years.
 
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jgr

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What happened immediately after the tribulation of 70 AD?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
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claninja

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Jesus said to the dying thief, in Luke 23:43, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

And yet Jesus did not go to paradise that same day, as clearly testified by the scriptures

John 20:17 “Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’”

There is no punctuation in the greek, thus the comma placement should came after today to be more consistent with scripture.

This is not uncommon in scripture

Acts 20:26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all,

Dueteronomy 6:6 And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart.


Jesus also yielded up his spirit to the Father.
Luke 23:46 Then Jesus called out in a loud voice, “Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit.

But as scripture testifies, he did no go to heaven that day.
John 20:17 “Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’”


The context of this passage is the resurrection
2 corinthians 5:4-5 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Thus Paul would rather, or be "well pleased" to be absent from the body, from the earthly tent, and be present with the Lord in the heavenly dwelling. This goes right back to the main context: the resurrection

2 corinthians 5:6-8 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Notice, Paul states to always be at home with the Lord occurs at us being caught up to the Lord. This is consistent with 2 corinthians 5, to be away from the body is to be with the Lord.
1 thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord


Right, and Paul clearly states that while his departure "has come", it wouldn't be until the appearing of the Lord that he would receive his reward.

2 timothy 4:6-8 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

The going to be with Christ has to be taken with the entire context of Paul's messages. To be with Christ would occur at the resurrection.

Paul states believers who have died are "sleeping", not yet at home with the Lord

1 Corinthians 15:6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.

1 corinthians 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Again Paul confirms it is upon being caught up to the Lord, that we are always with Him.

1 thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord

Death was a promotion for Paul!!!

Well, Paul did believe the resurrection was "about to be"

Acts 24:15 having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, [that] there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;


Symbolic language from an Apocolyptic book, not the best place to create a doctrine about going to heaven upon death prior to the resurrection.
 
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claninja

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This doesn't address my post. You stated the validity of the temple is unknown in scripture between 30ad and 70ad. This is shown to false in Acts 21:20-26. Jews, who were Christians, were very zealous for the law and even urged paul to partake in an offering in the temple to show that he did not teach against the law.

Thus, was the temple presently standing when Hebrews was written?
Were the priests performing their duties in this present standing temple?

What did the Holy Spirit symbolize by this for the PRESENT AGE that the author of hebrews was living in?


I believe Christ's shift to answering the second question (re the future second coming) comes in Matthew 24:23, Mark 13:21 and Luke 21:25.

This is where I would disagree. Contextually, it doesn't make sense.

Since, we agree that they are parallel accounts, 2 of the 3 accounts show that the questions are all about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, and the signs leading up to it.

Luke 21:7 and they asked him, “Teacher, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?

Mark 13:4 Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are about to be accomplished?”

Thus Matthew's question means the exact same as its parallel accounts: it's pointing to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple and the signs leading up to it.

Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?


The detail re generation speaks that genea alive when He returns in power and glory.

Again, no Bible translation ever translates genea as anything other then generation.

Thayer's lexicon even agrees that the genea of matthew 24:34 means "multitude of men living at the same time"

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).





 
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claninja

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Matthew 24:34 is listed under part 3). You keep leaving that out.

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).
 
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Christian Gedge

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A few quick notes about this incident: First, they were new converts from Judaism, and the Jerusalem elders seemed willing to permit 'customs' although they themselves shared a level of revelation similar to Paul.

Second, the ceremony proposed here was a Nazarite vow, not atonement sacrifices as forbidden in the book of Hebrews. The elders and Paul reasoned (wrongly IMO) that a custom-based sacrifice not involving atonement would be reasonable.

Third, the sacrifice never took place. Paul was arrested before the purification stage was finished. (verse 27) I believe the plan was ill conceived, and God intercepted it before Paul compromised himself.

Thus, was the temple presently standing when Hebrews was written?
What are you asking here Claninja? Are you suggesting that animal sacrifice was still acceptable to God in an interim period between AD 30 and AD 70?
 
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