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If the count starts on Day of Atonement, it ends on New Years Day.We also know that the 2300 evenings and mornings is referring to the same "seven" as Daniel 9 when the abomination is set up and desolation occurs because it is describing the same event.
Now, one seven is 7 years or 2520 days. Why is there, then, only 2300 days from the time the abom is set up until the sanctuary is reconsecrated?
Is it because the time is shortened for the sake of the elect?
Ezek 40-48 shows the sanctuary being reconsecrated (chapter 43, in particular).
Doesn't anyone find it interesting that 2300 days is 7 months 10 days shy of one 'seven' and there are scriptures that talk about the day of atonement to be celebrated on the 10th day of the 7th month? Is that a coincidence or what could it mean?
Ok, so how do we know it's not 4600 sacrifices if there are 2300 evenings and mornings? One sacrifice for each evening and one for each morning?You've been playing with the numbers, Jen, I would never have noticed.
Oh, the law states that the daily sacrifice is that of morning and evening, 2,300 equals 1,150 days, roughly 3 1/2 times.
THAT is exactly what I had trouble figuring up...If the count starts on Day of Atonement, it ends on New Years Day.
Starting the 7th month 10th day of the year (Day of Atonement),
and after 6years 4months 20days or 2300 days later,
it ends on the 7th year 1st month 1st day (New Years Day).
Sounds plausible for a 360 day year.
After the death of Alexander , the empire was divided among four of his generals. This was not an altogether peaceful settlement, however. Seleucus finally was able to consolidate his power and control over the territory that included Syria, Babylonia in 312 BC. Although Ptolemys influence was principally in Egypt and Arabia Petrea, he also exercised control over Palestine. However, this latter territory became a hotly contested area between the Ptolemies and the Seleucids for many years. In any case, Maccabees is apparently counting from the time that Seleucus consolidated his power in 312 BC.Alexander conquered Persia in 334BC. If we were to add 145 years to your scenario, we would come to approximately 189BC, a full twenty+ years before Antiochus Epiphanes could have come to power. How do you explain this difference?
In my last post to Jen I explained why the 2300 evenings and mornings refers to the daily sacrifices. Since there would be two daily sacrifices every day, it would take 1150 days to offer 2300 daily sacrifices. So, were looking for a period of 1150 days. And, as I have shown from the references from secular history in 1Maccabees, 1150 days is exactly the duration of the suspension of the daily sacrifices by Antiochus.Assuming I am working in the wrong direct two things come to mind.
1) Where in scripture can we deduce that the 2300 days are "divided" in two?
2) If we divide the 6.38 years in two, as you suggest, we come to 3.19 years. Where is this time of 3.19 years fall in your scenario?
Youre trying to tie two unrelated things together. Dan. 8 is talking about events that would be fulfilled during the Grecian kingdom. That is exactly what Gabriel said. The suspension of the morning and evening sacrifices that is mentioned in Dan. 8 was fulfilled in the days of Antiochus Epiphanes. Dan. 8:11 tells us that the little horn (Antiochus) would remove the regular sacrifice and take away the lawful worship in the sanctuary. In Dan. 8:14, Gabriel declares that after 2300 evenings and mornings the holy place would be restored.Where does this scripture or better yet HOW does this scripture tell us that the daily sacrifice would "return" only to be taken away again?
Assuming your point is correct for a moment, that Antiochus Epiphanes took away the sacrifice, what verse or collection of verses describe the "return" of the daily sacrifice only to be taken away again at an even later date?
The Bible is clear that Jesus Christ is the "last sacrifice" for sin. If, by Jesus being the "last sacrifice," he took away the "daily sacrifice" where in your scenario does scripture mention that Antiochus Epiphanes would take away the sacrifice and where does scripture show that it was restored after Antiochus Epiphanes?
How so? Daniel received this vision about the year 550 BC. It was not fulfilled until about 165 BC. Thats, what, about 385 years? Sounds like many days to me!Dan 8:26
And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told [is] true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it [shall be] for many days.
And yet, your scenario doesn't seem to conclude the "many days" that Daniel's vision is accomplished.
Lets see. I looked at the prophecy. I found some pretty precise flags that would help us pinpoint when these things would occur (with specific mentions of two particular nations that were not at the time of the vision, but would one day be, powerful empires). I looked to secular history and could pretty well identify the large horn of the goat as Alexander the Great. I looked at secular history and could pretty well identify the four separate kingdoms that were formed after the death of Alexander, that were represented by the four horns. And I looked to secular history and found one man (Antiochus) who arose from one of those horns (the Seleucids) and trampled Gods people, desecrated the temple, and abolished the sacrifices for a period of exactly 1150 days. And now you want to come along and tell me its all coincidence! My goodness. Ive known some agnostics in my time, but this .Because Bible prophecy works just that way. For example, if you could somehow manage to equate your scenario into what actually transpired in scripture I might be inclined to pay better attention.
Antiochus came in, just as the scriptures describe, toward the end of the Grecian empire, and just a short time before Rome began to grow in its power and influence. Though he was not the rightful heir to the throne (that would have been one of the sons of Seleucus IV), Antiochus managed to usurp the throne for himself. He formed many alliances, but was known to work deceitfully against all his allies to enlarge his personal power. It was his policy to throw his intended victims off guard by offering them his friendship and alliance. Then he would maneuver for an advantageous position till he could catch them by surprise. He took the name Epiphanes which means illustrious one (not that he was conceited, of course). But he proved to be so contemptible that the people made a play on his name and called him Epimanes which means Madman. In short, everything that we can find in secular history about this man fits the description in Dan. 8 to a T.But Dan 8:23-25 seems to suggest that after the "four horned" beast (divided Greece) "in the latter time of their kingdom" that another more powerful kingdom would conquer them. How does Antiochus Epiphanes fit in considering the power and total length of domination displayed by pagan Rome?
No. The Hebrew indicates not days (as in 2300 24 hour periods) but rather evenings and mornings. The context of this statement has reference to the fact that the little horn would remove the regular sacrifice (v11). In v12, Gabriel says that the host (a reference to the Jews) will be given over to the horn along with the regular sacrifice In v13, Daniel asked, How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply The regular sacrifice would be referring to the sacrifices that were offered every morning and every evening. So, in v14, Gabriel declared that with respect to the regular sacrifice, there would be 2300 evenings and mornings, then the holy place will be restored. Clearly, Gabriel is tying evenings and mornings to the regular sacrifice and not to 2300 24 hour periods.Ok, so how do we know it's not 4600 sacrifices if there are 2300 evenings and mornings? One sacrifice for each evening and one for each morning?
It seemed to me to be a count of days, not sacrifices.....right?
The only significance to the number of days is that the
verse repeats almost verbatim what is specified in the law.
So, if you have a prophetic detail that ties in to the law, it has to come to pass.
After the death of Alexander , the empire was divided among four of his generals. This was not an altogether peaceful settlement, however. Seleucus finally was able to consolidate his power and control over the territory that included Syria, Babylonia in 312 BC. Although Ptolemys influence was principally in Egypt and Arabia Petrea, he also exercised control over Palestine. However, this latter territory became a hotly contested area between the Ptolemies and the Seleucids for many years. In any case, Maccabees is apparently counting from the time that Seleucus consolidated his power in 312 BC.
In my last post to Jen I explained why the 2300 evenings and mornings refers to the daily sacrifices. Since there would be two daily sacrifices every day, it would take 1150 days to offer 2300 daily sacrifices. So, were looking for a period of 1150 days. And, as I have shown from the references from secular history in 1Maccabees, 1150 days is exactly the duration of the suspension of the daily sacrifices by Antiochus.
Youre trying to tie two unrelated things together. Dan. 8 is talking about events that would be fulfilled during the Grecian kingdom.
That is exactly what Gabriel said. The suspension of the morning and evening sacrifices that is mentioned in Dan. 8 was fulfilled in the days of Antiochus Epiphanes.
Dan. 8:11 tells us that the little horn (Antiochus) would remove the regular sacrifice and take away the lawful worship in the sanctuary. In Dan. 8:14, Gabriel declares that after 2300 evenings and mornings the holy place would be restored.
How so? Daniel received this vision about the year 550 BC. It was not fulfilled until about 165 BC. Thats, what, about 385 years? Sounds like many days to me!
Lets see. I looked at the prophecy. I found some pretty precise flags that would help us pinpoint when these things would occur (with specific mentions of two particular nations that were not at the time of the vision, but would one day be, powerful empires). I looked to secular history and could pretty well identify the large horn of the goat as Alexander the Great. I looked at secular history and could pretty well identify the four separate kingdoms that were formed after the death of Alexander, that were represented by the four horns. And I looked to secular history and found one man (Antiochus) who arose from one of those horns (the Seleucids) and trampled Gods people, desecrated the temple, and abolished the sacrifices for a period of exactly 1150 days. And now you want to come along and tell me its all coincidence! My goodness. Ive known some agnostics in my time, but this .
Antiochus came in, just as the scriptures describe, toward the end of the Grecian empire, and just a short time before Rome began to grow in its power and influence. Though he was not the rightful heir to the throne (that would have been one of the sons of Seleucus IV), Antiochus managed to usurp the throne for himself. He formed many alliances, but was known to work deceitfully against all his allies to enlarge his personal power.
It was his policy to throw his intended victims off guard by offering them his friendship and alliance. Then he would maneuver for an advantageous position till he could catch them by surprise. He took the name Epiphanes which means illustrious one (not that he was conceited, of course). But he proved to be so contemptible that the people made a play on his name and called him Epimanes which means Madman.
In short, everything that we can find in secular history about this man fits the description in Dan. 8 to a T.
JThe Hebrew indicates not days (as in 2300 24 hour periods) but rather evenings and mornings. .
Are you referring to the evenings and mornings as referring to sacrifices and not days?
If so, it's verbatim in Genesis too.
Gen 1:5God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day.
Gen 1:8God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning--the second day.
Gen 1:13And there was evening, and there was morning--the third day.
Gen 1:19And there was evening, and there was morning--the fourth day.
Gen 1:23And there was evening, and there was morning--the fifth day.
Gen 1:31God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day.
So, how can we know if the angel in Daniel was referring to 2300 sacrifices or 2300 days? If it were sacrifices, then wouldn't it be 4600 because there is a sacrifice in the morning and in the evening?
Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain [saint] which spake, How long [shall be] the vision [concerning] the daily [sacrifice], and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
hmmm...the KJV translates it as "days"...I'll check out the Hebrew...it indicates "evening and morning 2300"
Since when does God count time by sacrifices instead of by days?
Yeah...and uh...who is the "prince of the host"/"Prince of princes" that this bad guy magnified himself to and stood up against if it's all in the past?
It is speaking of events of the final 'seven'....from the abomination, to the desolation, to the host being trampled...the 2300 days are within the final 'seven'.
The final "seven" happens after the Messiah is cut off.
Antiochus Epiphanes died 150 - 200 years before Christ was even born, right?
The final "seven" happens in the midst of the Messiah is cut off, but again I see your point.
Well, about that...I'm not so sure...because after the Messiah is cut off the temple is destroyed and those two events were 40 years apart so they couldn't be within the same 'seven' because a 'seven' is seven years, right?
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (2nd temple); and the end thereof (2nd temple)[shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined (for the 2nd temple).
Dan 9:27 And he (the prince that shall come) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (final seven): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (3rd temple), and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate(3rd temple), even until the consummation (fulfillment), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (the host of saints).
If both the Messiah is cut off (about 27-30AD) and the temple is destroyed (about 67-70AD) after the 69th week and both events are 40 YEARS apart, then they do not happen in a final 'seven'.
However, in the final 'seven' an abomination occurs, sacrifices and oblation cease, and the people are trampled...therefore there will have to be a (yet another) temple in the final seven. The people (Romans) destroyed the 2nd temple. The prince that shall come (future) will be of those people but will make sacrifices cease in a future temple.
Well, sure!Hi Jen,
You are to be commended for your interest in the 2300 day prophecy. It is not only extreamly important, it is also the longest timed prophecy in the entire Bible. It also contains a prophecy within a prophecy.
Unfortunately the rather short answers given in this thread, as well as in most Bible studies, does not allow for indepth understanding of this prophecy.
Since this is your thread may I ask if you would like dig deeper into this entire topic? The benefit of doing so is that you will be able to answer your own question posed in your OP.
If your answer is yes, I will come back and post more that a few sentences, or a few text at a time, so that you may follow the entire context to reach a logical conclusion.
I look forward to your response.
Your friend and brother in Christ,
Doc
You are in for something good!Well, sure!
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