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Daniel, Chapters 13 & 14

BobRyan

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The Zadok Priesthood was ousted from the temple at around 175 BC.

Rachel Elior makes a link between that event and the scrolls found at Qumran:




There were variants found in the scrolls at Qumran. By that I mean that there were variants among the various copies of the books of the Bible found a Qumran.

If you look at post 11 you will see that 4Q551 Daniel Susanna was found at Qumran.

This wouldn't be the first time that Josephus gave us false testimony.

The Hebrew Bible wasn't canonized until after the fall of the Temple.

Josephus did not say "no other writings exist" -- in fact he was arguing against accepting "other writings" -- his point was that the Jews had already compiled the canon of what we call the OT today - and they were faithfully maintained in the temple. His argument was that all the other texts that had been surfacing were never included in the set that was "unchanged" and maintained in the temple.

So while the findings at Qumran do show other writings "existed" and various forms existed - they did nothing to refute Josephus' claim that what was "maintained in the temple" as that canonized set was unchanged for over 300 years.

Daniel 2:4-7:28 is Aramaic and Daniel 8-12 is Hebrew. It appears that the Aramaic form was for general consumption at the time of the Babylonian and Persian captivity of the Jews but the Hebrew form was the more detailed view of the future and just for Jews so they would know what would happen in the future.

There was no Greek Empire to speak of during the Babylonian captivity so it is highly unlikely that Daniel would be publishing his letter in Greek.
 
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BobRyan

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According to Google Search, the works were removed because although existing in Greek Manuscripts, the chapters were not written in Hebrew Manuscripts. The chapters were included in Christian Canon until the Protestants removed them based on the question of authenticity.
.

from: Susanna (Book of Daniel) - Wikipedia

"a narrative included in the Book of Daniel (as chapter 13)

It is not included in the Jewish Tanakh and is not mentioned in early Jewish literature,[2] although the text does appear to have been part of the original Septuagint from the 2nd century BC,[3] and was revised by Theodotion, a Hellenistic Jewish redactor of the Septuagint text (c. 150 AD)."
 
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BobRyan

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The Hebrew Bible wasn't canonized until after the fall of the Temple.

Canonized by whom?

===========================================
The Very Long Process of Canonization of the Hebrew Bible : History of Information

"Evidence suggests that the process of canonization of the Tanakh or Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) occurred over several centuries, probably between 200 BCE and 200 CE.

"Rabbinic Judaism recognizes the twenty-four books of the Masoretic Text, commonly called the Tanakh or Hebrew Bible . Evidence suggests that the process of canonization occurred between 200 BC and AD 200. A popular position is that the Torah was canonized circa 400 BC, the Prophets circa 200 BC, and the Writings circa AD 100 perhaps at a hypothetical Council of Jamnia —this position, however, is increasingly criticised by modern scholars."

===========================

NT Writers thought it was already canonized:

Luke 24
25 And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 "Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?"
27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

Again Paul say "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God and is to be used for doctrine AND correction" 2Tim 3:16.

And in Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to see IF those things (spoken to them by the Apostle Paul) were SO"

====================================


Jerome –

Jerome is an authority for this division, he (Luther) cited St. Jerome, who in the early 5th century distinguished the Hebrew and Greek Old Testaments,[4] stating that books not found in the Hebrew were not received as canonical. Although his statement was controversial in his day,[5] Jerome was later titled a Doctor of the Church and his authority was also cited in the Anglican statement in 1571 of the Thirty-Nine Articles.[6]

Jerome completed his version of the Bible, the Latin Vulgate, in 405. In the Middle Ages the Vulgate became the de facto standard version of the Bible in the West. These Bibles were divided into Old and New Testaments only; there was no separate Apocrypha section. Nevertheless, the Vulgate manuscripts included prologues[11] that clearly identified certain books of the Vulgate Old Testament as apocryphal or non-canonical. In the prologue to the books of Samuel and Kings, which is often called the Prologus Galeatus, Jerome described those books not translated from the Hebrew as apocrypha; he specifically mentions that Wisdom, the book of Jesus son of Sirach, Judith, Tobias, and the Shepherd "are not in the canon". In the prologue to Esdras he mentions 3 and 4 Esdras as being apocrypha. In his prologue to the books of Solomon, he mentioned "the book of Jesus son of Sirach and another pseudepigraphos, which is titled the Wisdom of Solomon". He says of them and Judith, Tobias, and the Books of the Maccabees, that the Church "has not received them among the canonical scriptures".

He mentions the book of Baruch in his prologue to the Jeremias and does not explicitly refer to it as apocryphal, but he does mention that "it is neither read nor held among the Hebrews". In his prologue to the Judith he mentions that "among the Hebrews, the authority [of Judith] came into contention", but that it was "counted in the number of Sacred Scriptures" by the First Council of Nicaea.
================================

The invented idea of: council of Jamnia for the purpose of canonization


Jamnia – Speculation about Torah is baseless

In 1871 Heinrich Graetz, drawing on Mishnaic and Talmudic sources, concluded that there must have been a late 1st century Council of Jamnia which had decided the Jewish canon. This became the prevailing scholarly consensus for much of the 20th century, but from the 1960s onwards it came increasingly into question. In particular, later scholars noted that none of Graetz's sources actually mentioned books that had been withdrawn from a canon, and questioned the whole premise that the discussions of the rabbis were about canonicity at all.



Answer: The Council of Jamnia did not canonize the Tanakh (the OT text) since as Josephus admits the books of the Tanakh had not changed from the days of Ezra.

==================

Josephus, a Jewish historian of the first century:
From Artaxerxes [Malachi ' s time] until our time everything has been recorded but has not been deemed worthy of like credit with what has -preceded, because the exact succession of prophets ceased. But what faith we have placed in our own writings is evident by our conduct; for though so long a time has now passed, no one has dared to add anything to them, or alter anything in them” (Contra Apion. Whiston's Josephus, p. 609, emphasis added

This is interesting because Josephus has no "horse in this race" so to speak, when contrasting the Catholic Apocrypha with fact that the Protestant OT is in agreement with the Hebrew Bible.
 
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Josephus did not say "no other writings exist" -- in fact he was arguing against accepting "other writings" -- his point was that the Jews had already compiled the canon of what we call the OT today - and they were faithfully maintained in the temple. His argument was that all the other texts that had been surfacing were never included in the set that was "unchanged" and maintained in the temple.

Again those controlling the Temple, at the time of Yahshua, were imposters. I have even read that the High Priest position was being sold to the highest bidder.

There is no scholarly consensus as to when the Hebrew Bible canon was fixed: some scholars argue that it was fixed by the Hasmonean dynasty (140–40 BCE),[4] while others argue it was not fixed until the second century CE or even later.[5]

Development of the Hebrew Bible canon - Wikipedia

The Brit Chadashah (NT) quotes writings that are not found in the Rabbinic Canon as scripture.

There is convincing evidence that John the Baptist was connected to the Qumran community. If anyone we know of, he was in line to be High Priest in that day. The writings that we have on him suggest that he was acting in that role.


 
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So while the findings at Qumran do show other writings "existed" and various forms existed - they did nothing to refute Josephus' claim that what was "maintained in the temple" as that canonized set was unchanged for over 300 years.

Not according to Dr. Elior, a prominent authority on this subject.
 
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BobRyan

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Again those controlling the Temple, at the time of Yahshua, were imposters. I have even read that the High Priest position was being sold to the highest bidder.

There is no scholarly consensus as to when the Hebrew Bible canon was fixed

Given that statement - then Josephus' statement is perfectly in line with the NT writer saying that Christ was teaching from "all of the scriptures" - and it is interesting that there does not seem to be a "doubt" for the author of Luke or a hint that the listeners had a doubt as to what "from all of the scriptures" meant.

So then we have total confidence indicated by the NT writers that there was a well accepted phrase "from all of the scriptures" -- and it is mirrored by Josephus' confidence that this completeness was a well known fact among the Jews of his day.

So then now we have the Hebrew bible and the Protestant Bible in full agreement in terms of the content of that text.

But as you point out there is in modern times a kind of "no wait! all was in confusion at that time until a later date when it was agreed as to what all of the scriptures really meant for Jews". I am hesitant to go down that road, given that lack of Bible support for it. Even the apocryphal books admit that they had lost prophetic inspiration at that time.

=============

The more distant from the first century context - the more confusion about it is admitted.

The Very Long Process of Canonization of the Hebrew Bible : History of Information
"Today, there is no scholarly consensus as to when the Jewish canon was set" (Wikipedia article on Development of the Jewish Bible Canon, accessed 12-24-2009)."
 
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It is not included in the Jewish Tanakh and is not mentioned in early Jewish literature,[2] although the text does appear to have been part of the original Septuagint from the 2nd century BC,[3] and was revised by Theodotion, a Hellenistic Jewish redactor of the Septuagint text (c. 150 AD)."

No surprise there. Dr Elior covered this.

ZADOK (Heb. צָדוֹק, "righteous"), priest in the time of king *David. Zadok established a high priestly dynasty which continued until approximately 171 B.C.E.,

Zadok

I don't believe that Yahshua and his disciples were following the Hellenistic powers ruling the Temple.
 
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BobRyan

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Not according to Dr. Elior, a prominent authority on this subject.

Your video above says "up until that time the oldest copies of the Bible we had were from the 9th century forward" - so then from the 800's. That means we had copies from about 1000 years before the 1800's.

What is beyond all doubt is that Josephus in the first century had access to copies much older than that .
 
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Given that statement - then Josephus' statement is perfectly in line with the NT writer saying that Christ was teaching from "all of the scriptures" - and it is interesting that there does not seem to be a "doubt" for the author of Luke or a hint that the listeners had a doubt as to what "from all of the scriptures" meant.

Josephus is not in with the NT writer saying that Christ was teaching from "all of the scriptures;" because Yahshua and his disciples quoted scripture that is not found in said Canon.
 
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BobRyan

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Good question. It wasn't by Yahshua and his disciples; or they would have included the scripture that they quoted.

It is they that confidently assert the term "in all the scriptures" as fully defined and accepted by their contemporary readers. As the first century Josephus also asserts.
 
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BobRyan

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Josephus is not in with the NT writer saying that Christ was teaching from "all of the scriptures;" because Yahshua and his disciples quoted scripture that is not found in said Canon.

1. It is hard to argue that if Jesus and his first century contemporaries knew of any other writings - then their term "in all of the scriptures" must have been undefined even to themselves, or that any other writings they knew of must therefore have been included in what they termed "in all of the scriptures".

Paul illustrates this point in Titus 1 -
10 For there are many rebellious people, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true.

its a hard case to make.

2. If the confusion on this point were even half of what scholars admit that confusion to be in our age - then a NT letter "listing the books" would have been more than a little useful to them as they went about preaching from the scriptures. No such "we just figured out what all of scripture must be for the Hebrew Bible - and here it is, finally at last" - text from NT authors or even a hint from them that such a "newly compiled" list by them was to be had.
 
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Your video above says "up until that time the oldest copies of the Bible we had were from the 9th century forward" - so then from the 800's. That means we had copies from about 1000 years before the 1800's.

What is beyond all doubt is that Josephus in the first century had access to copies much older than that .

That's irrelevant. We have access to copies much older than that now. Those copies and the NT debunk Josephus. Modern scholars, including Dr. Elior, cast doubt on Josephus' account of the Essenes as well.

A number of differences exist between the statements by Josephus regarding the death of John the Baptist and the New Testament accounts.[20][23]

Josephus on Jesus - Wikipedia

Should we trust Josephus, or scripture?
 
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BobRyan

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A number of differences exist between the statements by Josephus regarding the death of John the Baptist and the New Testament accounts.[20][23]

Josephus on Jesus - Wikipedia

Should we trust Josephus, or scripture?

Agreed. But Josephus is not the "Christian historian" nor even a Christian at all. In fact he has no "horse in that race" between a Catholic Apocrypha and the fact that the Protestant OT is in agreement with the Hebrew Bible. Josephus would not care to be in defense of either Catholic Christian or Protestant Christian.

His statement (as in the case of all historic records of that type) is significant in that he does not argue of the form "I in my great intellect have concluded that there is no change" but rather he is arguing a "well known fact" that his readers are asked to simply notice.. just like in Luke 24 the passing statement "from all the scripture" is not made to establish something as "scripture" but is a passing reference where the writer clearly shows he thinks the reader already fully understand that specific reference.

The fact that they would write - not by proving/introducing that point - but by asserting their readers already know it - is historically significant.
 
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It is they that confidently assert the term "in all the scriptures" as fully defined and accepted by their contemporary readers. As the first century Josephus also asserts.

Josephus was with "them." "They" rejected Yahsua's teaching, and the scripture that Yahshua used to teach it. I've lost count of all of the quotes of scripture that I see in the NT, that do not come out of the Jewish Canon, but do come out of the scripture found at Qumran.

Have you listened to Dr Elior's scholarly dissertation yet?
 
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BobRyan

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That's irrelevant. We have access to copies much older than that now.

Much older than what?

Much older than the 9th century A.D. or much older than anything Josephus had access to in the first century 2000 years before our time?

It is very difficult to make the claim that people in the first century had no access to documents older than the ones we know have discovered.

And it would be hard to suppose they thought Daniel was living in the second century B.C. or wrote in Greek.
 
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BobRyan

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Josephus was with "them." "They" rejected Yahsua's teaching, and the scripture that Yahshua used to teach it. I've lost count of all of the quotes of scripture that I see in the NT, that do not come out of the Jewish Canon, but do come out of the scripture found at Qumran.

All Bible scholars know that the NT was written in Greek and that much of the OT quotes in the NT text come from the Greek OT that the readers would have had access to and the fact that Luke does not "introduce the term" but assumes the reader already knows it - means they already had that concept without controversy. Which leads to more first century support for Josephus' point on that same well-accepted fact in his day.

But in Luke 24 Christ is not speaking to Greeks - but to Hebrews in Jerusalem. So "in all the scriptures" had to be a reference to the texts they themselves would have valued.

====================
"manuscript, known as Codex Chisianus 88. Sextus Julius Africanus did not regard the (Dan 13) story as canonical. Jerome (347–420), while translating the Vulgate, treated this section as a non-canonical fable.[6] In his introduction, he indicated that Susanna was an apocryphal addition because it was not present in the Hebrew text of Daniel"
from: Susanna (Book of Daniel) - Wikipedia

=======================
So then it is no wonder that Dan 13 is Greek but Dan 1-12 is not. You to wonder when chapters are added in a different language pertaining to a much later empire and even today's historians claim it is not earlier than 2nd century B.C.

But I don't see a good argument at all for Daniel living in the 2n century B.C. in Babylon.
 
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Much older than the 9th century A.D.

Yes. We now have manuscripts which date back to when the rightful Priesthood was ousted from the Temple.

or much older than anything Josephus had access to in the first century 2000 years before our time?

I don't know what Josephus had access to. Would he have cared to look at the manuscripts that Yahshua was teaching from?

It is very difficult to make the claim that people in the first century had no access to documents older than the ones we know have discovered.

I didn't make that claim. Did Josephus have access to manuscripts which were held in esteem by Yahshua and his disciples; as he was in bed with the imposters, posing as the rightful Priesthood, who rejected those manuscripts as scripture?

That's a question that I have no interest in investigating. I'll focus my attention on Yahshua.
 
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BobRyan

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Yes. We now have manuscripts which date back to when the rightful Priesthood was ousted from the Temple.

The question was - what was the oldest texts that first century readers like Josephus had access to.


I don't know what Josephus had access to.

Which is the point since we are talking about the history for the texts as known in his day for readers seeing terms like "in all the scriptures" in Luke 24.

And how many of those first century Jewish readers were thinking that Daniel wrote in Greek or that He lived in the 2nd century B.C.?

As also the Septuagint was from 2nd century.
 
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All Bible scholars know that the NT was written in Greek

That's not true. You might want to look a little deeper into that subject. We don't have the autograph manuscripts; but there is evidence that at least some of them were not written in Greek.
 
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