Daniel 9:

[Just The Facts]

Hi Winslow


You missed the point I made. It was Jerome who altered the text it was Jerome who came up with this prophecy being about Jesus it was Jerome who made the Latin Translation.

The Latin is flawed as is the KJV taken from the Latin It is flawed go to the Hebrew to the original.

Any scholar of Hebrew will tell you that this is correct

Bible in Basic English
9:25 Have then the certain knowledge that from the going out of the word for the building again of Jerusalem till the coming of a prince, on whom the holy oil has been put, will be seven weeks: in sixty-two weeks its building will be complete, with square and earthwork.

I used that translation this time instead of the RSV because I wanted to show you it is not just one translation that says it. The other point I would make is that the RSV is by far the best translation of Hebrew ever done. Because they had Hebrews do the Translation not Christian scholars looking to prove a given doctrine.

Second the Hebrew word used for Messiah by Jerome is "Mashiyach"

It is used 39 times in the OT it is translated 37 times as anointed one and Jerome decide that no lets just put Messiah there because that is what I think it means. It does not mean Messiah it means Anointed one.

We really need to look at a very basic thing first if you are to understand this prophecy.

Why was Jeremiah's prophecy 70 years why not 90 years or 60 years WHY 70 years.

And Why is Daniel's prophecy 490 years and not 200 years or 1000 years why 490 years.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Gwyn

I will address all of your points but like I just said to winslow first we need to look at a very basic thing.

Why was Jeremiah's prophecy 70 years why not 90 years or 60 years WHY 70 years.

And Why is Daniel's prophecy 490 years and not 200 years or 1000 years why 490 years.

There is a reason for this do you understand that reason?

 

[gwynedd1]

Hi Winslow


You missed the point I made. It was Jerome who altered the text it was Jerome who came up with this prophecy being about Jesus it was Jerome who made the Latin Translation.

The Latin is flawed as is the KJV taken from the Latin It is flawed go to the Hebrew to the original.

Any scholar of Hebrew will tell you that this is correct

Bible in Basic English
9:25 Have then the certain knowledge that from the going out of the word for the building again of Jerusalem till the coming of a prince, on whom the holy oil has been put, will be seven weeks: in sixty-two weeks its building will be complete, with square and earthwork.

I used that translation this time instead of the RSV because I wanted to show you it is not just one translation that says it. The other point I would make is that the RSV is by far the best translation of Hebrew ever done. Because they had Hebrews do the Translation not Christian scholars looking to prove a given doctrine.

I typically use the RSV. On important verses I like putting as many as I can side by side.The KJV is what it is and not the best. However I do like it as a hedge against modern politics.

Second the Hebrew word used for Messiah by Jerome is "Mashiyach"

It is used 39 times in the OT it is translated 37 times as anointed one and Jerome decide that no lets just put Messiah there because that is what I think it means. It does not mean Messiah it means Anointed one.

We really need to look at a very basic thing first if you are to understand this prophecy.

Why was Jeremiah's prophecy 70 years why not 90 years or 60 years WHY 70 years.

And Why is Daniel's prophecy 490 years and not 200 years or 1000 years why 490 years.

I consider Christ the anointed one. So I see little difference. That is how the Son is described in Hebrews.

 

[gwynedd1]

Hi Gwyn

I will address all of your points but like I just said to winslow first we need to look at a very basic thing.

Why was Jeremiah's prophecy 70 years why not 90 years or 60 years WHY 70 years.

And Why is Daniel's prophecy 490 years and not 200 years or 1000 years why 490 years.

There is a reason for this do you understand that reason?

Go ahead and give me your best shot. I have not made a detailed study on why those time periods. Ezekiel chapter 4 is really the one I have had more trouble fitting in to these time periods but again has not been a big priority though it is on my mind.

 

[ikester]

Why not? A covenant is an agreement. How long does it take to agree? When someone buys a house they, at some point, stop signing the papers and live according to the agreement.

SO WHAT WAS THE 7 YEAR AGREEMENT.....AND WITH WHOM.......

 

[gwynedd1]

SO WHAT WAS THE 7 YEAR AGREEMENT.....AND WITH WHOM.......

The covenant that Jesus came to confirm.

 

[winslow]

Hi Winslow




Why was Jeremiah's prophecy 70 years why not 90 years or 60 years WHY 70 years.

.

The captivity was 70 years to fulfill the sabbaths that were desecrated by the apostate nation.

 

[winslow]

Hi Winslow

Qouote

Well he had every reason to be destraught cause the curse of leviticus had not yet been applied.

He explains exactly why he was destraught. He understood from the writings of jeremiah that the time of his peoples captivity was coming to it's close, but was worried that the Lord was going to prolong the captivity because of the 2300 day(year) vision he was given.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

My best shot well here it goes.

Lev 25:18: Wherefore ye shall do my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; and ye shall dwell in the land in safety. 19: And the land shall yield her fruit, and he shall eat your fill, and dwell therein in safety. 20: And if ye shall say, What shall we eat the seventh year? behold, we shall not sow, nor gather in our increase:
21: Then I will command my blessing upon you in the sixth year, and it shall bring forth fruit for three years.

The house of Israel and the house of Judah did not keep the Land Sabbath. Even when they lived good in the eyes of the Lord they never kept the land Sabbath. They in fact missed seventy land Sabbaths. So Jeremiah is Given 70 years as the punishment.

Now true Daniel was worried but it was not about the 2300 mornings and evenings listen to what he says

11: Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

It is the curse that he is worried about not the 2300 days he did not understand the 2300 days PLUS he is told that is for a distant time not tomorrow.

[26] The vision of the evenings and the mornings which has been told is true; but seal up the vision, for it pertains to many days hence."

As I said Daniel is afraid of the curse not the 2300 days so what is the curse.

14: But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; 15: And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant: 16: I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. 17: And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you……………………..43: The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them:


Well that had already happened the curse was indeed in play here.

So what did they have to do when in captivity to get out of the curse.

40: If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; 41: And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: 42: Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember;

Ok so the people have to confess their sins and the sins of the Father and repent. That is why Daniel says this

16: O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.

So if they confess while in captivity they will be let out of the curse but what if they refuse to turn from their evil even in captivity then what.

Lev 26:23: And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me; 24: Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.

So now look at what Daniel is considering

2: In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

Daniel wants to know the same thing as every other Jew

Jer:33:24: Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.

So Daniel is asking is the 70 years the end of punishment will the Jewish share of the Covenant be fulfilled YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THIS IS ALL ABOUT THE COVENANT or is there going to be more punishment.

So what is the Jewish Share of the Covenant. Well that is simple That Jesus would be born of the House of David the branch of Jesse. The people all know this covenant this promise to their fathers.

Well did they repent in captivity or did they continue to rebel……………..they did not repent as a people they rebelled worshipped the golden statue all except Daniel and the others with him. So the Seven times punishment will be implimented

Here is what Daniel is told.

[23] At the beginning of your supplications a word went forth, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the word and understand the vision. 24: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

So 70 X 7 or 490 years.

Now look at this very closely

First off notice this “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression”

So it is 490 years to finish the punishment for the Transgression of the Jewish people.

Second Notice this “and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity,”
That is their sin their iniquity as per the curse of the Covenant

490 years before their share of the Covenant will be fulfilled.

This 490 years is a further punishment of the Jews a further withholding of the promise of Jesus being born a Jew. When the 490 years is over the curse will be lifted and the Promise will be fulfilled.

This time frame is not about giving an exact year for Jesus birth if that was the case their would not have been all the guessing and waiting and wondering as to when the Messiah would come they would have known the EXACT YEAR and the EXACT CITY………….They did not because this prophecy does not talk about that it talks about the Covenant and the curse and when the punishment will be over.

Once it is Over God will fulfill the Promise and Jesus would be born Sometime AFTER the 490 year of punishment.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Rafael

Ezekiel 4:4 is not about punishent times it is about the sin times the House of Israel had been in violation of the covenant 390 years whenthey were sent into captivity.

the House of Judah 40 years in their most recent run. So when they slipped back into violation under Jehoaikim The curse was unleashed and Judea fell in 604 BC.


Ezekiel is part of the captives that are in Babylon between 604BC and 586 when Nebby returns and destroy Jerusalem.

 

[Rafael]

Hi Rafael

Ezekiel 4:4 is not about punishent times it is about the sin times the House of Israel had been in violation of the covenant 390 years whenthey were sent into captivity.

the House of Judah 40 years in their most recent run. So when they slipped back into violation under Jehoaikim The curse was unleashed and Judea fell in 604 BC.


Ezekiel is part of the captives that are in Babylon between 604BC and 586 when Nebby returns and destroy Jerusalem.

Wow, I have some work to do in catching up, it seems.... Understanding context in history reveals much. I thought the reference to the sabbaths was interesting, too. The house of Israel and the house of Judah have seperate destinies, according to the prophets, that converge at the end times, and I thought this may be relavent to Daniel's prophecy. I still don't understand, but I will reread till I get it....

 

[gwynedd1]

The captivity was 70 years to fulfill the sabbaths that were desecrated by the apostate nation.

That is an interesting point of view. Do you have anymore behind it? This is intrest not a complaint.

 

[gwynedd1]

Hi

My best shot well here it goes.

Lev 25:18: Wherefore ye shall do my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; and ye shall dwell in the land in safety. 19: And the land shall yield her fruit, and he shall eat your fill, and dwell therein in safety. 20: And if ye shall say, What shall we eat the seventh year? behold, we shall not sow, nor gather in our increase:
21: Then I will command my blessing upon you in the sixth year, and it shall bring forth fruit for three years.

The house of Israel and the house of Judah did not keep the Land Sabbath. Even when they lived good in the eyes of the Lord they never kept the land Sabbath. They in fact missed seventy land Sabbaths. So Jeremiah is Given 70 years as the punishment.

Now true Daniel was worried but it was not about the 2300 mornings and evenings listen to what he says

11: Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

It is the curse that he is worried about not the 2300 days he did not understand the 2300 days PLUS he is told that is for a distant time not tomorrow.

[26] The vision of the evenings and the mornings which has been told is true; but seal up the vision, for it pertains to many days hence."

As I said Daniel is afraid of the curse not the 2300 days so what is the curse.

14: But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; 15: And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant: 16: I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. 17: And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you……………………..43: The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them:


Well that had already happened the curse was indeed in play here.

So what did they have to do when in captivity to get out of the curse.

40: If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; 41: And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: 42: Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember;

Ok so the people have to confess their sins and the sins of the Father and repent. That is why Daniel says this

16: O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.

So if they confess while in captivity they will be let out of the curse but what if they refuse to turn from their evil even in captivity then what.

Lev 26:23: And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me; 24: Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.

So now look at what Daniel is considering

2: In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

Daniel wants to know the same thing as every other Jew

Jer:33:24: Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.

So Daniel is asking is the 70 years the end of punishment will the Jewish share of the Covenant be fulfilled YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THIS IS ALL ABOUT THE COVENANT or is there going to be more punishment.

So what is the Jewish Share of the Covenant. Well that is simple That Jesus would be born of the House of David the branch of Jesse. The people all know this covenant this promise to their fathers.

Well did they repent in captivity or did they continue to rebel……………..they did not repent as a people they rebelled worshipped the golden statue all except Daniel and the others with him. So the Seven times punishment will be implimented

Here is what Daniel is told.

[23] At the beginning of your supplications a word went forth, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the word and understand the vision. 24: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

So 70 X 7 or 490 years.

Now look at this very closely

First off notice this “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression”

So it is 490 years to finish the punishment for the Transgression of the Jewish people.

Second Notice this “and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity,”
That is their sin their iniquity as per the curse of the Covenant

490 years before their share of the Covenant will be fulfilled.

This 490 years is a further punishment of the Jews a further withholding of the promise of Jesus being born a Jew. When the 490 years is over the curse will be lifted and the Promise will be fulfilled.

This time frame is not about giving an exact year for Jesus birth if that was the case their would not have been all the guessing and waiting and wondering as to when the Messiah would come they would have known the EXACT YEAR and the EXACT CITY………….They did not because this prophecy does not talk about that it talks about the Covenant and the curse and when the punishment will be over.

Once it is Over God will fulfill the Promise and Jesus would be born Sometime AFTER the 490 year of punishment.

OK . I understand the point of view. You are saying it was not an exact date for Jesus but an exact date to end the period of judgement.
However I would have trouble with Daniel 9:24 not to be Jesus. The execution of those things must be.
The 70 X 7 ties in very well and is quite powerful as a support for Daniel's 70 weeks . I have tried to apply that 7 multiple to Ezekiel as well. I thnk eitherway we are looking at the time of Jesus.

Matthew 18

21: Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?"
22: Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.

It is also interesting to see this number as a symbol of the patience of God. This cannot be out of the blue. Israel was in judgement but God kept the promise.It was as if Jesus was saying how many sins God endoured.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Gwyn

Why do you have trouble with verse 24

Jesus did not put an end to sin..........................sin is everywhere

Jesus did not have to atone for iniquity..........................he was spotless

Notice that the 490 years seals up the prophecy...................in other words it ends at the end of the 490 years of punishment.

The reference to bringing in everlasting rightousness and the anoiting the most holy is a reference to the Messiah but it happens after the 490 years not during the 490 years.

Joshua is the first prince King of the Second temple era

11: Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest; 12: And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: 13: Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

The Making of King and priest required an anoiting with oil.

So when we read the verse in the original Hebrew what it says is

[25] Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks.

That is joshua...................

Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

Well that is just what Happened this Line of Priest Kings did continue for exactly 490 Years.

The one week pact is made by Jason when he buys his way to the high priesthhod in 167 BC. This is the first of many desolations that continue to Jerusalems end by the Prince of Rome Titus

 

[gwynedd1]

Hi Gwyn

Why do you have trouble with verse 24

Jesus did not put an end to sin..........................sin is everywhere


Jesus did not have to atone for iniquity..........................he was spotless

Jesus atoned for us ..How will sin ever be removed if not Christ?

Hebrews 9
26: for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27: And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment,
28: so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

I am just stunned that it continues. Daniel 12 is all about the time of the Jews and says so 4 times. In the book of Hebrews it is spelled out what happended at the end of the age before the new covenant and still in plain text it is missed. Everytime I post it it is ignored as if it does not exist.

Romans 5

17: If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18: Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.

Sin was still an issue for the kingdom. There is NO sin in the kingdom after Christ. Anything outside the kindom does not matter. If the beast and false prophet are in the lake of fire for ever is their sin removed? No but they are not in the kingdom.

Isaiah 66

22: "For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before me, says the LORD; so shall your descendants and your name remain.
23: From new moon to new moon, and from sabbath to sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, says the LORD.
24: "And they shall go forth and look on the dead bodies of the men that have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Notice that the 490 years seals up the prophecy...................in other words it ends at the end of the 490 years of punishment.

The reference to bringing in everlasting rightousness and the anoiting the most holy is a reference to the Messiah but it happens after the 490 years not during the 490 years.

No, its during the 70 weeks. It is done at the end. You will never ever convince me to not read what it says. What is not there is the desolations. That does happen after the last week. That is not on the list.

24: "Seventy weeks of years are decreed concerning your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

Joshua is the first prince King of the Second temple era

11: Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest; 12: And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: 13: Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

The Making of King and priest required an anoiting with oil.

So when we read the verse in the original Hebrew what it says is

[25] Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks.

That is joshua...................



Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

Well that is just what Happened this Line of Priest Kings did continue for exactly 490 Years.

The one week pact is made by Jason when he buys his way to the high priesthhod in 167 BC. This is the first of many desolations that continue to Jerusalems end by the Prince of Rome Titus

Not even remotely convinced.

 

[ikester]

The covenant that Jesus came to confirm.

I'm unaware of a covenant that needed to be confirmed by Jesus or let alone one he confirmed and for seven years......however he fulfilled the law....but that's not the subject at hand.....

 

[gwynedd1]

I'm unaware of a covenant that needed to be confirmed by Jesus or let alone one he confirmed and for seven years......however he fulfilled the law....but that's not the subject at hand.....

One step at a time. How about this covenant?

Matthew 26

27: And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you;
28: for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
29: I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

 

[winslow]

Hi Gwyn


Jesus did not put an end to sin..........................sin is everywhere

Jesus did not have to atone for iniquity..........................he was spotless

The Jews had a probationary period to put an end to their rebellious attitude (up until the time of Stephen, unfortunately they dealt with Stephen the same as the prophets)

At the cross Jesus made the atonement for sin. Not for His sins, our sins

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Gwyn Hi Winslow

The question Daniel is asking is not will Jesus atone for mankind’s sins.....................It is .........have we the Jews atoned ENOUGH for our sins and the sins of our fathers.

You have Daniel asking one question and your answer (ie Jesus atoned for our sins) has absolutely nothing to do with the question asked.

The Answer is there 490 MORE YEARS to atone for your(Jewish people) sins.

Yes Jesus did make atonement for sin at the cross..........................However that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with the question asked by Daniel.

That is like you asking me what is 2+2...............................and my answer is The sun will shine tomorrow.

The answer does not deal with the question at all. Daniel asked a question

Are you going to turn your face to forgiveness or is the curse of the covenant still upon us.

THAT IS THE QUESTION.

He is assured that the angel has come to him TO GIVE HIM THE ANSWER TO HIS QUESTION.

[22] He came and he said to me, "O Daniel, I have now come out to give you wisdom and understanding.

Not an answer to some other totally unrelated question.

The Question is will the 70 years of Jeremiah end OUR punishment for OUR SIN ...................for OUR Iniquity.

The Answer is No 490 years is the end of YOUR punishment for YOUR Sin, 490 years is the time to atone for YOUR iniquity.


Quote of Gwyn
You will never ever convince me to not read what it says.
End Quote

That is EXACTLY what you are doing you are NOT reading what it says…………you are reading into the text a question that is not even in the text.

This is not about the sins of Mankind.

IT IS ABOUT

[FONT=&quot]Daniel 9:2………………The number of years which, ……………………….., must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, ………………..[/FONT]

 

[gwynedd1]

Hi Gwyn Hi Winslow

The question Daniel is asking is not will Jesus atone for mankind’s sins.....................It is .........have we the Jews atoned ENOUGH for our sins and the sins of our fathers.

You have Daniel asking one question and your answer (ie Jesus atoned for our sins) has absolutely nothing to do with the question asked.

The Answer is there 490 MORE YEARS to atone for your(Jewish people) sins.

Yes Jesus did make atonement for sin at the cross..........................However that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with the question asked by Daniel.

That is like you asking me what is 2+2...............................and my answer is The sun will shine tomorrow.

The answer does not deal with the question at all. Daniel asked a question

Are you going to turn your face to forgiveness or is the curse of the covenant still upon us.

THAT IS THE QUESTION.

He is assured that the angel has come to him TO GIVE HIM THE ANSWER TO HIS QUESTION.

[22] He came and he said to me, "O Daniel, I have now come out to give you wisdom and understanding.

Not an answer to some other totally unrelated question.

The Question is will the 70 years of Jeremiah end OUR punishment for OUR SIN ...................for OUR Iniquity.

The Answer is No 490 years is the end of YOUR punishment for YOUR Sin, 490 years is the time to atone for YOUR iniquity.


Quote of Gwyn
You will never ever convince me to not read what it says.
End Quote

That is EXACTLY what you are doing you are NOT reading what it says…………you are reading into the text a question that is not even in the text.

This is not about the sins of Mankind.

IT IS ABOUT

[FONT=&quot]Daniel 9:2………………The number of years which, ……………………….., must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, ………………..[/FONT]

Hello again Just,

I don't think you are wrong . You are just not expanding the scope enough. The Messiah would not come while Israel was under judgement. So you are absolutely right. After the judgement the promise was fulfilled.

Luke 2

32: a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and for glory to thy people Israel."

There is one important think that dispensationalists, for example not you, is that Jesus fulfills the promises of God to the Jews. Jesus is however not limited to the Jews but to all. This is inclusive not exclusive to the promise. Jesus was king of the Jews. The annointed one in Daniel 9 is speaking of a king. Jesus was the last king of the Jews.

8: But of the Son he says, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom.
9: Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, thy God, has anointed thee with the oil of gladness beyond thy comrades."

The other mistake that is made is the idea a "replacement theory" . We have been grafted into the tree which means we are an hier to the promise of Israel. It is by faith in Christ. Now the replacement concept comes from those dispensationlist Saduccess that mistake a twig for a stump. A branch must be part of the stump and that is Israel that is alive to the God of the living.
The punishment of Israel and the timing of the coming of the Christ is very much related. Christ was to come at the end of the judgement.
So I, in that way, agree with you.